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>>I hired a junior developer a couple months ago ... his arrival meant our code base should be rewritten in a "more modern language". Needless to say that he di

by kamaal 13y ago

>>I hired a junior developer a couple months ago ... his arrival meant our code base should be rewritten in a "more modern language". Needless to say that he didn't last very long. Aha, Let me tell you what the problem is here. This junior guy and most of his gang else where are starting companies with those 'Everything Else' languages. All these 20 hr/day working kids are working on all these cool shiny projects, building billion dollar companies with these new language. While Java can perfectly manage to hang on and survive in ICU thanks to doctors like you. The new languages will get lions share of popularity, new projects and all they need to make it best language of the current times. Needless to stay you can still work on Java. But it will mostly legacy code, and by and large unimportant projects which no one really cares about in any company. People working on such stuff are easily disposable. It gets difficult to get jobs by the day. Even your existing company will find it difficult to give you raise. This happens every now and then. Fighting this as a whole is impossible. They best way out is adapt to the new stuff and move on or risk getting obsolete.

weej 13y ago
>> But it will mostly legacy code, and by and large unimportant projects which no one really cares about in any company Tell that to Google and Amazon.
- kamaal 13y ago
  Even in those companies. The legacy systems are in place only because the cause of replacing them is prohibitively high. I've worked in Indian IT companies where most of the outsourced projects are legacy system which the contracting company doesn't want its own people to maintain anymore. Its a bad situation to be in. One company I know of had something like 40000 COBOL programmers, who work on projects from big banks. Most projects are maintained only until they are phased out, Projects shutting down and people being moved around is common. One metric we had to measure top technologies was to see which one were not used in our company.10 years back that was Java, 4-5 years back that was Python. Today that's Go and Scala. Bleeding edge one's never get outsourced out, the projects with older languages were a common place. A programmer must never attach him/herself to any tool in general. Adapt and move on, such people survive and win in the longer run.
  - Delmania 13y ago
    Kamaal, do you work for either Amazon or Google? Neither company considers Java a legacy language. Do you know Google also builds applications in C++? Would you consider that legacy? How about C? How about C#? Simply because it's old does not mean it's outdated. Java is hampered more because of how inflexible the people who define are than any particular feature.
    - Xdes 13y ago
      The difference is C, C++, and C# have continued to progress as languages (for better or worse). Java the language is stagnating. Language feature wise it's several years behind C# and C++. Meanwhile Scala is scooping up what Java is lacking.
primitivesuave 13y ago
You seem to enjoy generalizations and hyperbole quite a bit. First of all, such a small fraction of companies actually end up worth anything at all, so jumping to the conclusion that an arrogant prick who couldn't adopt to an unfamiliar development environment will go out and build a billion dollar company is incredibly unlikely. Maybe I'll be completely wrong, but the odds are undoubtedly in my favor. Second of all, you clearly didn't read my post where I talked about Python being our new weapon of choice. We aren't going to rewrite our legacy Java codebase in Python or something else because there is absolutely no need for it, and those codebases put the bread and butter on the table. Third, when you're running the company, you have to consider things from a business perspective rather than a technical one. I'm a developer myself so I understand technical details and limitations, but my first question about the product is "does it work?". Nobody is going to give two shits what language or optimizations you used for a product if it doesn't work. They aren't going to pay you a dime, either. Your comment really exemplifies my point, that people do nothing but sip the Java haterade without realizing what it is good for. Honestly I couldn't care less- I'm not trying to change your way of thinking, and based on your radical assertions that Java is dead, neither are you. But in case some other aspiring dev is reading this, I'd strongly suggest to not be close-minded about powerful tools like Java that have mature ecosystems and an excellent community around them.
- kamaal 13y ago
  >>We aren't going to rewrite our legacy Java codebase in Python or something else because there is absolutely no need for it Neither would I, And if I were in your place I would keep Java running. And that was my whole point. Want to work on legacy stuff? Or the newer and better projects? By the way, Python isn't that new these days either. Start up's I know of are going the Go, Clojure and Scala way. >>when you're running the company, you have to consider things from a business perspective rather than a technical one. Which is why for the new projects it makes sense to chose the latest tools which have little tech debt, which have fixed problems with older tools and will hang on for longer time. >> people do nothing but sip the Java haterade without realizing what it is good for. I don't debate that at all. But frankly speaking Java being good doesn't mean there are better things than that. >>Honestly I couldn't care less- I'm not trying to change your way of thinking Neither am I, I have seen first hand what happens when you stick to legacy tools. The jobs dry out, the projects you can work on move towards legacy end and lastly your career as a large suffers. >>but in case some other aspiring dev is reading this, I'd strongly suggest to not be close-minded about powerful tools like Java that have mature ecosystems and an excellent community around them. If a young dev is reading this, please treat tools as tools and have to special attachment to them. Learn to adapt and move on to newer things as and when necessary.

by kamaal 13y ago

weej 13y ago

>> But it will mostly legacy code, and by and large unimportant projects which no one really cares about in any company Tell that to Google and Amazon.

kamaal 13y ago
Even in those companies. The legacy systems are in place only because the cause of replacing them is prohibitively high. I've worked in Indian IT companies where most of the outsourced projects are legacy system which the contracting company doesn't want its own people to maintain anymore. Its a bad situation to be in. One company I know of had something like 40000 COBOL programmers, who work on projects from big banks. Most projects are maintained only until they are phased out, Projects shutting down and people being moved around is common. One metric we had to measure top technologies was to see which one were not used in our company.10 years back that was Java, 4-5 years back that was Python. Today that's Go and Scala. Bleeding edge one's never get outsourced out, the projects with older languages were a common place. A programmer must never attach him/herself to any tool in general. Adapt and move on, such people survive and win in the longer run.
- Delmania 13y ago
  Kamaal, do you work for either Amazon or Google? Neither company considers Java a legacy language. Do you know Google also builds applications in C++? Would you consider that legacy? How about C? How about C#? Simply because it's old does not mean it's outdated. Java is hampered more because of how inflexible the people who define are than any particular feature.
  - Xdes 13y ago
    The difference is C, C++, and C# have continued to progress as languages (for better or worse). Java the language is stagnating. Language feature wise it's several years behind C# and C++. Meanwhile Scala is scooping up what Java is lacking.

primitivesuave 13y ago

You seem to enjoy generalizations and hyperbole quite a bit. First of all, such a small fraction of companies actually end up worth anything at all, so jumping to the conclusion that an arrogant prick who couldn't adopt to an unfamiliar development environment will go out and build a billion dollar company is incredibly unlikely. Maybe I'll be completely wrong, but the odds are undoubtedly in my favor. Second of all, you clearly didn't read my post where I talked about Python being our new weapon of choice. We aren't going to rewrite our legacy Java codebase in Python or something else because there is absolutely no need for it, and those codebases put the bread and butter on the table. Third, when you're running the company, you have to consider things from a business perspective rather than a technical one. I'm a developer myself so I understand technical details and limitations, but my first question about the product is "does it work?". Nobody is going to give two shits what language or optimizations you used for a product if it doesn't work. They aren't going to pay you a dime, either. Your comment really exemplifies my point, that people do nothing but sip the Java haterade without realizing what it is good for. Honestly I couldn't care less- I'm not trying to change your way of thinking, and based on your radical assertions that Java is dead, neither are you. But in case some other aspiring dev is reading this, I'd strongly suggest to not be close-minded about powerful tools like Java that have mature ecosystems and an excellent community around them.

kamaal 13y ago
>>We aren't going to rewrite our legacy Java codebase in Python or something else because there is absolutely no need for it Neither would I, And if I were in your place I would keep Java running. And that was my whole point. Want to work on legacy stuff? Or the newer and better projects? By the way, Python isn't that new these days either. Start up's I know of are going the Go, Clojure and Scala way. >>when you're running the company, you have to consider things from a business perspective rather than a technical one. Which is why for the new projects it makes sense to chose the latest tools which have little tech debt, which have fixed problems with older tools and will hang on for longer time. >> people do nothing but sip the Java haterade without realizing what it is good for. I don't debate that at all. But frankly speaking Java being good doesn't mean there are better things than that. >>Honestly I couldn't care less- I'm not trying to change your way of thinking Neither am I, I have seen first hand what happens when you stick to legacy tools. The jobs dry out, the projects you can work on move towards legacy end and lastly your career as a large suffers. >>but in case some other aspiring dev is reading this, I'd strongly suggest to not be close-minded about powerful tools like Java that have mature ecosystems and an excellent community around them. If a young dev is reading this, please treat tools as tools and have to special attachment to them. Learn to adapt and move on to newer things as and when necessary.