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> your loyalty to the company will be questioned If loyalty means "you can fuck me over and I'll stick around," it's a vice, not a virtue. Loyalty keeps sweat

> your loyalty to the company will be questioned If loyalty means "you can fuck me over and I'll stick around," it's a vice, not a virtue. Loyalty keeps sweatshops fully staffed while keeping good businesses from replacing anyone who is a bad fit. In fact, why would any business want a "loyal" employee, someone incapable of recognizing or acting in situations that have grown lopsided? If someone struggles with strategic decisionmaking in their own life, why trust them to aggressively act in the best interests of the business? Feudalism is long dead. The occasional job change shouldn't merit a scarlet letter.

wpietri 13y ago
Your model is too simple. In my mind, a loyal employee is one who will ride out the ups and downs in a relationship, and put in the effort necessary to make things work. The same is true for a loyal employer. To that end, I think a loyal employee should speak up when they think they deserve more money, because it is in everybody's best interests that they be fairly paid. And I think a loyal boss should a) do their best to make sure that employees are already fairly paid, and b) when they slip, to be grateful that an employee has taken the risk of talking about something that can be difficult.
- eropple 13y ago
  I get what you're saying, but I don't feel like calling his model "too simple" is fair when yours is predicated on loyal employers. They exist, but I think I'd be hard-pressed to rely on their beneficence.
  - wpietri 13y ago
    I don't think any healthy relationship involves relying on beneficence. Loyalty for me at work is more about recognizing and acting for long-term benefit, not short-term gain. I think loyalty, along with trust, gets built over time, and it's something both parties have to work toward. By "too simple", I meant that his model of the world was too black and white. Trust isn't a binary condition. It's a continuum. A collaboration.
    - eropple 13y ago
      In your estimation, how often does loyalty come from the side of the table with all the money? :p
      - wpietri 13y ago
        I can't really estimate that, but I've seen it happen a fair bit. And I've benefited from it as well. But then, I'm choosy about where I spend my time.
vacri 13y ago
I think you would benefit from learning more about human psychology.
- brownbat 13y ago
  I've actually studied psych. Econ and game theory are worthwhile disciplines too, and sometimes make better predictions when money is on the table.
borplk 13y ago
Every time I see the word "loyalty" used in the business and employment concept I cringe. If my boss ever mentions it in a sentence. I swear I'll quit within a week. Loyalty to a capitalist legal entity who will fuck you for a dollar is absurd. Reserve your loyalty for your family.
blueskin_ 13y ago
It's primarily around future raises - once you accept a counteroffer, your future raises won't be as good (if they happen) as "What if he leaves right after?" is always on their minds.
- sokoloff 13y ago
  The counterpoint is you've ID'd yourself as someone who cares about their comp and is aware of their value on the market. Those signals are positively correlated with future raises. (I agree that getting an off-cycle counter will have some negative correlation to your future raises, mostly because "you already got some of it" will be on the mind.)

wpietri 13y ago

Your model is too simple. In my mind, a loyal employee is one who will ride out the ups and downs in a relationship, and put in the effort necessary to make things work. The same is true for a loyal employer. To that end, I think a loyal employee should speak up when they think they deserve more money, because it is in everybody's best interests that they be fairly paid. And I think a loyal boss should a) do their best to make sure that employees are already fairly paid, and b) when they slip, to be grateful that an employee has taken the risk of talking about something that can be difficult.

eropple 13y ago
I get what you're saying, but I don't feel like calling his model "too simple" is fair when yours is predicated on loyal employers. They exist, but I think I'd be hard-pressed to rely on their beneficence.
- wpietri 13y ago
  I don't think any healthy relationship involves relying on beneficence. Loyalty for me at work is more about recognizing and acting for long-term benefit, not short-term gain. I think loyalty, along with trust, gets built over time, and it's something both parties have to work toward. By "too simple", I meant that his model of the world was too black and white. Trust isn't a binary condition. It's a continuum. A collaboration.
  - eropple 13y ago
    In your estimation, how often does loyalty come from the side of the table with all the money? :p
    - wpietri 13y ago
      I can't really estimate that, but I've seen it happen a fair bit. And I've benefited from it as well. But then, I'm choosy about where I spend my time.

vacri 13y ago

I think you would benefit from learning more about human psychology.

brownbat 13y ago
I've actually studied psych. Econ and game theory are worthwhile disciplines too, and sometimes make better predictions when money is on the table.

borplk 13y ago

Every time I see the word "loyalty" used in the business and employment concept I cringe. If my boss ever mentions it in a sentence. I swear I'll quit within a week. Loyalty to a capitalist legal entity who will fuck you for a dollar is absurd. Reserve your loyalty for your family.

blueskin_ 13y ago

It's primarily around future raises - once you accept a counteroffer, your future raises won't be as good (if they happen) as "What if he leaves right after?" is always on their minds.

sokoloff 13y ago
The counterpoint is you've ID'd yourself as someone who cares about their comp and is aware of their value on the market. Those signals are positively correlated with future raises. (I agree that getting an off-cycle counter will have some negative correlation to your future raises, mostly because "you already got some of it" will be on the mind.)