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My last boss, when I asked for a raise, said "Explain to me why I should give you a raise". I said nevermind, started looking for a new job and left. Shocking

My last boss, when I asked for a raise, said "Explain to me why I should give you a raise". I said nevermind, started looking for a new job and left. Shockingly, when I informed them, there was a higher offer waiting. You seriously wonder what goes on in these people's brains.

pekk 13y ago
I don't wonder at all. They're thinking "I can get someone else at this price, and what matters to me is the price" edit: Also, many bosses are offended that you would ask for a raise, or have the idea that you need to be dominated or you are no good any more. Also, it's cheaper to listen to people talk about how good they are, or just look at the number of hours they work, than to try to pay attention and assess for yourself how good they are. Also, when people promise you the moon they are under pressure to deliver it and can be cut down when they don't get it for you. And if they say they are good, they can be shamed. A scapegoat and yes-man often has more value than someone who is really producing, because of the beholder's value system
jeady 13y ago
I don't get it. It seems reasonable to me that you should be able justify getting a raise, even if that justification is "I can get paid more elsewhere but I'd prefer to get paid more here." You make it sound like "explain to me why I should give you a raise" is the same thing is "no."
- digz 13y ago
  Totally agree. All you need to say is I'm not being paid market.
  - drdeadringer 13y ago
    It wouldn't hurt to also bring some of those "metrics" bosses and others seem to love. For example: "Here's how I made//saved you planets of sweaty money."
  - click170 13y ago
    is that not exactly what he was doing by asking for a raise? Eg rarely does someone go to their boss with the thinking of "I'm not working any harder, nor am I taking on any additional work, but I'd like a pay rise anyway." Every time ive asked for a raise its because I thought I deserved more. if you (my employer) disagree then I am happy to hear your thoughts on how I can do better but asking "why" just seems like stalling, as if you wanted me to think you didn't understand the expressed sentiment in asking for a raise. To be honest this seems like passive aggressive management techniques to me, and I value honest straightforward employers who are proactive about employee happiness.
    - PeterisP 13y ago
      By the way, "I'm not working any harder, nor am I taking on any additional work, but I'd like a pay rise anyway" is a completely valid argument if you're not being paid the market rate. Has the market rate risen by 20% while you were here? A 20% raise for the same work is completely reasonable. Were you being paid below market because at the time the startup was just scraping by and couldn't afford it? When that's over, you'll need pay your people much more for the exact same effort&results.
      - taybin 13y ago
        And if the market rate lowers 20%?
        maxbrown 13y ago
        Naturally a 20% salary reduction! Although occasionally this may be the case (pay cuts), it seems clear that the employer absorbs the risk of entering into contract with the employee at a certain time, with a certain market price. Interesting that the employee gets to partake in the upside but the employer gets the downside, with the exception of course of the employee getting fired. I wonder - if there were really a way to gauge the current market for X talent (sort of a glassdoor salary index) - could employers purchase "insurance" or hedge their hiring price with "employee securities"?
        13y ago
- ryguytilidie 13y ago
  No, I really don't. As I said to another poster, either you guys simply had no time to read a few lines of text or you already had your mind made up before reading them. I simply think that a manager should be familiar enough with your contributions that they shouldn't need this information. If your boss is this unfamiliar with your contributions its pretty obvious they suck. I also think that a manager making you explain why you deserve a raise is fairly poor form. At this point we were already months past the point where i should have just gotten a raise without a conversation at all. If they had done that up front, I would not have been so quick to leave.
amirmc 13y ago
> "You seriously wonder what goes on in these people's brains." Perhaps it's something like: "I'll need to get approval/budget from higher up and they're going to ask me why. Maybe he can help me by telling why he thinks he should get one." I respect that your experience may not have been pleasant but it's unfair to paint everyone in that position with the same brush. It would seem odd to me if simply asking for a raise out of the blue results in one.
- muglug 13y ago
  OK - there's always a sort of equation related to compensation in developers' minds that should be at the forefront of managers' minds: happiness(job) = a * job.workEnvironment + b * job.compensation - c * (possibleJob.compensation - job.compensation) Some developers attach low values to b and c, but part of a manager's job is to maximise the work environment, and minimise the difference between compensation for jobs that the employee is qualified to do elsewhere and employee's current compensation (as long as management wants to retain the employee).
  - amirmc 13y ago
    > ... but part of a manager's job is to ... minimise the difference between compensation…" In principle, I agree but in practice I don't see how this is workable (unless you're trying to retain a star -- as opposed to all employees). It means the direct managers need to know how much the comp is elsewhere at all times. Who has energy to figure that out and meet all the demands of the day-to-day? On top of which, the spread of salaries/benefits might cover a wide range so how do you figure out where you fit (who should you really compare yourself to)? The simplest way is when you hear internally that X has left for company Y and got a pay-bump of Z%. It's the kind of thing people would expect the folks at HR to be looking into, rather than the engineering managers. I'm not trying to justify the above but it does seem easy to understand why things are this way.
    - muglug 13y ago
      Compensation is not a manager's fulltime responsibility, obviously. But something they should check up on with a annual or bi-annual frequency. There are ample tools (e.g. Glassdoor) that give insight into how competitive a given worker's salary is.
10feet 13y ago
It seems like you could have talked about some things very easily. They guy may have just been looking for some reason to take it upstairs. If you can't think of why you deserve a raise, maybe you don't.
- ryguytilidie 13y ago
  What the fuck? I'm genuinely pretty blown away at the lack of reading that went on here. I never said that I can't think of a reason I deserve a raise, I said that a manager shouldn't need to ask, because they should know, since they are, you know, your manager. But yeah, I guess grasping at straws to be a snarky dick trumps using any logical thought whatsoever. Thanks for the contribution though?
balls187 13y ago
If and when you are a boss, you'll learn that you will want help justifying these types of requests. Perhaps your boss just didn't have his eye on the ball and know about all the awesome things you did, or maybe he had a lot of direct reports and can't immediately recall your accomplishments. Think about it from a different perspective, you joined the company, and I'm going to pay you X, for Y work. If you're still doing Y work, why do you deserve more than X? If nothing else, it would have been good practice at talking about your achievements.
WWKong 13y ago
"Boss, in fact it is your move. Explain to me why you shouldn't."
mikeash 13y ago
Huh? Seems like a perfectly reasonable question. Why is asking that cause to abandon your request?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
polshaw 13y ago
You were invited to sell yourself, and instead of taking that opportunity, you took your toys and went off somewhere else. Maybe your boss should have known your market rate, the quality and quantity of your work, how important to the company you were, and that you wanted a raise because you felt you were being undervalued. Maybe he should have known you weren't comfortable being challenged and should have avoided it. But maybe he was giving you the opportunity to inform their opinion further, rather than just to give $default_raise. It seems a perfectly reasonable request to me, providing it was not said in a hostile tone. Whatever, given the situation, going 'nevermind' and leaving, rather than communicating was completely the wrong thing to do.
- jrs235 13y ago
  Maybe his boss just didnt value him or thought he was over paid as it was? Maybe his boss realized he could finally say goodbye without firing the guy. Maybe this guy just proved he wasn't worth it by his own actions? Maybe his boss and company just weren't very bright.
- blueskin_ 13y ago
  Sometimes, when you've already raised concerns about being underpaid, when you've given it time, especially if you've kept up with what's going on politically in he company and it seems unlikely to change, you just need to go unless you want the same terrible money for the next 10 years.
tatalegma 13y ago
Exactly. Going through this with my employer now. I'm waiting till this coming week to find out what they decide. But if they say no, what they don't know is I have conversations ongoing already that will lead to offers. If/When I decide to leave there is no counter offer that will get me to stay. For me it's a matter of principle. By the time it gets to the point of counter offers, they've already missed their chance to pay me what I'm worth.
- cowls 13y ago
  "But if they say no, what they don't know is I have conversations ongoing already that will lead to offers." Unless they are really naive they probably do indeed know this.
chris_mahan 13y ago
It's less about the thing that is said ("I need a raise") and more about the thing that is unsaid: "I need more money so if I don't get it here I have to go get another job."

pekk 13y ago

I don't wonder at all. They're thinking "I can get someone else at this price, and what matters to me is the price" edit: Also, many bosses are offended that you would ask for a raise, or have the idea that you need to be dominated or you are no good any more. Also, it's cheaper to listen to people talk about how good they are, or just look at the number of hours they work, than to try to pay attention and assess for yourself how good they are. Also, when people promise you the moon they are under pressure to deliver it and can be cut down when they don't get it for you. And if they say they are good, they can be shamed. A scapegoat and yes-man often has more value than someone who is really producing, because of the beholder's value system

jeady 13y ago

I don't get it. It seems reasonable to me that you should be able justify getting a raise, even if that justification is "I can get paid more elsewhere but I'd prefer to get paid more here." You make it sound like "explain to me why I should give you a raise" is the same thing is "no."

digz 13y ago
Totally agree. All you need to say is I'm not being paid market.
- drdeadringer 13y ago
  It wouldn't hurt to also bring some of those "metrics" bosses and others seem to love. For example: "Here's how I made//saved you planets of sweaty money."
- click170 13y ago
  is that not exactly what he was doing by asking for a raise? Eg rarely does someone go to their boss with the thinking of "I'm not working any harder, nor am I taking on any additional work, but I'd like a pay rise anyway." Every time ive asked for a raise its because I thought I deserved more. if you (my employer) disagree then I am happy to hear your thoughts on how I can do better but asking "why" just seems like stalling, as if you wanted me to think you didn't understand the expressed sentiment in asking for a raise. To be honest this seems like passive aggressive management techniques to me, and I value honest straightforward employers who are proactive about employee happiness.
  - PeterisP 13y ago
    By the way, "I'm not working any harder, nor am I taking on any additional work, but I'd like a pay rise anyway" is a completely valid argument if you're not being paid the market rate. Has the market rate risen by 20% while you were here? A 20% raise for the same work is completely reasonable. Were you being paid below market because at the time the startup was just scraping by and couldn't afford it? When that's over, you'll need pay your people much more for the exact same effort&results.
    - taybin 13y ago
      And if the market rate lowers 20%?
      - maxbrown 13y ago
        Naturally a 20% salary reduction! Although occasionally this may be the case (pay cuts), it seems clear that the employer absorbs the risk of entering into contract with the employee at a certain time, with a certain market price. Interesting that the employee gets to partake in the upside but the employer gets the downside, with the exception of course of the employee getting fired. I wonder - if there were really a way to gauge the current market for X talent (sort of a glassdoor salary index) - could employers purchase "insurance" or hedge their hiring price with "employee securities"?
      - 13y ago
ryguytilidie 13y ago
No, I really don't. As I said to another poster, either you guys simply had no time to read a few lines of text or you already had your mind made up before reading them. I simply think that a manager should be familiar enough with your contributions that they shouldn't need this information. If your boss is this unfamiliar with your contributions its pretty obvious they suck. I also think that a manager making you explain why you deserve a raise is fairly poor form. At this point we were already months past the point where i should have just gotten a raise without a conversation at all. If they had done that up front, I would not have been so quick to leave.

amirmc 13y ago

> "You seriously wonder what goes on in these people's brains." Perhaps it's something like: "I'll need to get approval/budget from higher up and they're going to ask me why. Maybe he can help me by telling why he thinks he should get one." I respect that your experience may not have been pleasant but it's unfair to paint everyone in that position with the same brush. It would seem odd to me if simply asking for a raise out of the blue results in one.

muglug 13y ago
OK - there's always a sort of equation related to compensation in developers' minds that should be at the forefront of managers' minds: happiness(job) = a * job.workEnvironment + b * job.compensation - c * (possibleJob.compensation - job.compensation) Some developers attach low values to b and c, but part of a manager's job is to maximise the work environment, and minimise the difference between compensation for jobs that the employee is qualified to do elsewhere and employee's current compensation (as long as management wants to retain the employee).
- amirmc 13y ago
  > ... but part of a manager's job is to ... minimise the difference between compensation…" In principle, I agree but in practice I don't see how this is workable (unless you're trying to retain a star -- as opposed to all employees). It means the direct managers need to know how much the comp is elsewhere at all times. Who has energy to figure that out and meet all the demands of the day-to-day? On top of which, the spread of salaries/benefits might cover a wide range so how do you figure out where you fit (who should you really compare yourself to)? The simplest way is when you hear internally that X has left for company Y and got a pay-bump of Z%. It's the kind of thing people would expect the folks at HR to be looking into, rather than the engineering managers. I'm not trying to justify the above but it does seem easy to understand why things are this way.
  - muglug 13y ago
    Compensation is not a manager's fulltime responsibility, obviously. But something they should check up on with a annual or bi-annual frequency. There are ample tools (e.g. Glassdoor) that give insight into how competitive a given worker's salary is.

10feet 13y ago

It seems like you could have talked about some things very easily. They guy may have just been looking for some reason to take it upstairs. If you can't think of why you deserve a raise, maybe you don't.

ryguytilidie 13y ago
What the fuck? I'm genuinely pretty blown away at the lack of reading that went on here. I never said that I can't think of a reason I deserve a raise, I said that a manager shouldn't need to ask, because they should know, since they are, you know, your manager. But yeah, I guess grasping at straws to be a snarky dick trumps using any logical thought whatsoever. Thanks for the contribution though?

balls187 13y ago

If and when you are a boss, you'll learn that you will want help justifying these types of requests. Perhaps your boss just didn't have his eye on the ball and know about all the awesome things you did, or maybe he had a lot of direct reports and can't immediately recall your accomplishments. Think about it from a different perspective, you joined the company, and I'm going to pay you X, for Y work. If you're still doing Y work, why do you deserve more than X? If nothing else, it would have been good practice at talking about your achievements.

WWKong 13y ago

"Boss, in fact it is your move. Explain to me why you shouldn't."

mikeash 13y ago

Huh? Seems like a perfectly reasonable question. Why is asking that cause to abandon your request?

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

polshaw 13y ago

You were invited to sell yourself, and instead of taking that opportunity, you took your toys and went off somewhere else. Maybe your boss should have known your market rate, the quality and quantity of your work, how important to the company you were, and that you wanted a raise because you felt you were being undervalued. Maybe he should have known you weren't comfortable being challenged and should have avoided it. But maybe he was giving you the opportunity to inform their opinion further, rather than just to give $default_raise. It seems a perfectly reasonable request to me, providing it was not said in a hostile tone. Whatever, given the situation, going 'nevermind' and leaving, rather than communicating was completely the wrong thing to do.

jrs235 13y ago
Maybe his boss just didnt value him or thought he was over paid as it was? Maybe his boss realized he could finally say goodbye without firing the guy. Maybe this guy just proved he wasn't worth it by his own actions? Maybe his boss and company just weren't very bright.
blueskin_ 13y ago
Sometimes, when you've already raised concerns about being underpaid, when you've given it time, especially if you've kept up with what's going on politically in he company and it seems unlikely to change, you just need to go unless you want the same terrible money for the next 10 years.

tatalegma 13y ago

Exactly. Going through this with my employer now. I'm waiting till this coming week to find out what they decide. But if they say no, what they don't know is I have conversations ongoing already that will lead to offers. If/When I decide to leave there is no counter offer that will get me to stay. For me it's a matter of principle. By the time it gets to the point of counter offers, they've already missed their chance to pay me what I'm worth.

cowls 13y ago
"But if they say no, what they don't know is I have conversations ongoing already that will lead to offers." Unless they are really naive they probably do indeed know this.

chris_mahan 13y ago

It's less about the thing that is said ("I need a raise") and more about the thing that is unsaid: "I need more money so if I don't get it here I have to go get another job."