5 ms·

If this contains one great truth it's this > By The Time You Give Them a Raise, It’s Too Late. I have seen this happen often. If you get a higher offer from a

by sbt 13y ago

If this contains one great truth it's this > By The Time You Give Them a Raise, It’s Too Late. I have seen this happen often. If you get a higher offer from a second company, you will think that the first employer paid you below par, which leads to a feeling of being taken advantage of. At that point, it doesn't really help if the offer is countered, the feeling of being exploited has already taken root. Unfortunately, most managers just don't get this, or they somehow believe that they can counter offer. Maybe that works in sales/marketing, who knows, but I think it's different in dev.

balls187 13y ago
You don't get what you're worth, you get what you negotiate. If an employee feels taken advantage of, then I'm afraid they're going to go through life with a victim mentality, and probably aren't a rockstar to begin with.
- jodrellblank 13y ago
  Fine, but if I find somewhere willing to treat me like a respectable human involved in building their business and not just a cost centre to be minimised...
  - balls187 13y ago
    Take the following scenario (forgive me for using $--your word choice leads me to believe you may not be in the US) Say I have $10 to pay you. I ask you what you'd like. You say $7. I offer you $7. You agree. Where is the disrespect? If I wanted to buy some good will, I could offer you $8, and you'd be happy because I paid you more than you asked. In this scenario, I gave you the upper hand by allowing you to tell me what you'd like. I could have "anchored" the discussion by making an offer, or telling you the salary range for the position. Now you would feel disrespected if you found out that I actually could have paid you $10, but instead only offered $7 or $8. However you got what you wanted, so being upset is irrational. In all likelihood, you were upset because you would rather be given the $10, instead of having to negotiate. People get upset because they feel uncomfortable about negotiating, and mix emotions and feelings when doing so. It's not an emotional affair. Negotiation is about leverage, and with some practice, you can get good at it. For negotiating salary, you should do one of two things: 1. Figure out exactly what you want to be happy. Ignoring if you're asking for too little. Ask for that figure. It helps if you can justify the reasoning. or 2. Figure out what you are worth, and ask for that. Again, it helps if you can justify this with facts. If the company does not make you an offer that matches, and instead counter offers, then you should weigh their reasoning or just politely tell them no, and find someone else that will.
    - brownbat 13y ago
      > People get upset because they feel uncomfortable about negotiating Some of that discomfort is justified, as negotiation and other methods of hidden pricing can lock in discrimination. Ian Ayers found this effect when examining negotiations leading to car sales, leading to widespread racial and gender discrimination. Negotiation discrepancies were found to account for 10-15% of a gendered salary gap observed in Portugal by Card, Cardoso, and Kline. A survey of the lit on gender discrimination in employment is provided in Linda Babcock's "Women Don't Ask." (I feel like I've seen HUD research on negotiation effects for housing, but can't track it down.) Not saying it's not a skill people should learn to deal with the realities out there, but it can be a pretty insidious activity too, even when none of the participants think they're doing anything wrong.
      - balls187 13y ago
        I 100% agree with you. That's why I try not to approach salary negotiating with people I'm going to hire in an adversarial manner. My goal is to get them to join the team, and to pay them a salary they can feel proud of, and allow them to focus on doing great work for the company. But, I also have the very real constraint that I only have so much money to spend.
    - kamaal 13y ago
      >>Where is the disrespect? There is a clear display on lack of honesty here. And such people don't deserve any loyalty at all. If a company can't be honest with its own people they will definitely cheat their customers. >>so being upset is irrational. Right, if some doesn't know they are being cheated. Cheating is now perfectly justified. In fact if they discover later what happened its wrong on their part to be refuse to be cheated further.
      - balls187 13y ago
        >> There is a clear display on lack of honesty here. And such people don't deserve any loyalty at all. If a company can't be honest with its own people they will definitely cheat their customers. In the hypothetical scenario I outlined, was there a lack of honesty? There is an imbalance of information, certainly, but I don't think that information should be disclosed. >>> Right, if some doesn't know they are being cheated. Cheating is now perfectly justified. In fact if they discover later what happened its wrong on their part to be refuse to be cheated further. Along the same lines, where is the cheating occurring?
- aeonsky 13y ago
  I'd rather stay away from software jobs that want "rockstars" or "ninjas" or "gurus".
  - balls187 13y ago
    Why? The cynic in me thinks that's self selecting.
    - Nursie 13y ago
      You might end up working with a bunch of self-described 'rockstars', 'ninjas' and 'gurus', who I should imagine would be unbearable to spend time around.
      - balls187 13y ago
        I wouldn't want to work with people who self describe as top performers, unless that classification is also given by their peers, performance reviews, and accomplishments.
- eli_gottlieb 13y ago
  Please don't use the word "rockstar" in a serious sentence.
gresrun 13y ago
If you are dissatisfied with your compensation, speak up before you go looking elsewhere. If you say you're leaving, do it. Accepting a counter-offer is almost always a bad idea; no matter how much money is on the table. After accepting a counter-offer you are bought and paid-for, you decided to stay for the cash and, unfortunately, your loyalty to the company will be questioned forever after.
- gutnor 13y ago
  That is the standard advice and I have agreed with it for a long time. However, that highly depends on the company, especially large one. There is very often a disconnect between line management, HR, and all the parallel hierarchies that make up the company - meaning there is no direct relationship between people caring about your loyalty and people that have the means to do anything about it. Personally, nowadays I'm almost convinced there is no drawback. I have seen just too many people offered a red carpet for years after such threats.
- paul_f 13y ago
  Maybe you didn't know you were worth more, and neither did your employer?
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- brownbat 13y ago
  > your loyalty to the company will be questioned If loyalty means "you can fuck me over and I'll stick around," it's a vice, not a virtue. Loyalty keeps sweatshops fully staffed while keeping good businesses from replacing anyone who is a bad fit. In fact, why would any business want a "loyal" employee, someone incapable of recognizing or acting in situations that have grown lopsided? If someone struggles with strategic decisionmaking in their own life, why trust them to aggressively act in the best interests of the business? Feudalism is long dead. The occasional job change shouldn't merit a scarlet letter.
  - wpietri 13y ago

by sbt 13y ago

balls187 13y ago

You don't get what you're worth, you get what you negotiate. If an employee feels taken advantage of, then I'm afraid they're going to go through life with a victim mentality, and probably aren't a rockstar to begin with.

jodrellblank 13y ago
Fine, but if I find somewhere willing to treat me like a respectable human involved in building their business and not just a cost centre to be minimised...
- balls187 13y ago
  Take the following scenario (forgive me for using $--your word choice leads me to believe you may not be in the US) Say I have $10 to pay you. I ask you what you'd like. You say $7. I offer you $7. You agree. Where is the disrespect? If I wanted to buy some good will, I could offer you $8, and you'd be happy because I paid you more than you asked. In this scenario, I gave you the upper hand by allowing you to tell me what you'd like. I could have "anchored" the discussion by making an offer, or telling you the salary range for the position. Now you would feel disrespected if you found out that I actually could have paid you $10, but instead only offered $7 or $8. However you got what you wanted, so being upset is irrational. In all likelihood, you were upset because you would rather be given the $10, instead of having to negotiate. People get upset because they feel uncomfortable about negotiating, and mix emotions and feelings when doing so. It's not an emotional affair. Negotiation is about leverage, and with some practice, you can get good at it. For negotiating salary, you should do one of two things: 1. Figure out exactly what you want to be happy. Ignoring if you're asking for too little. Ask for that figure. It helps if you can justify the reasoning. or 2. Figure out what you are worth, and ask for that. Again, it helps if you can justify this with facts. If the company does not make you an offer that matches, and instead counter offers, then you should weigh their reasoning or just politely tell them no, and find someone else that will.
  - brownbat 13y ago
    > People get upset because they feel uncomfortable about negotiating Some of that discomfort is justified, as negotiation and other methods of hidden pricing can lock in discrimination. Ian Ayers found this effect when examining negotiations leading to car sales, leading to widespread racial and gender discrimination. Negotiation discrepancies were found to account for 10-15% of a gendered salary gap observed in Portugal by Card, Cardoso, and Kline. A survey of the lit on gender discrimination in employment is provided in Linda Babcock's "Women Don't Ask." (I feel like I've seen HUD research on negotiation effects for housing, but can't track it down.) Not saying it's not a skill people should learn to deal with the realities out there, but it can be a pretty insidious activity too, even when none of the participants think they're doing anything wrong.
    - balls187 13y ago
      I 100% agree with you. That's why I try not to approach salary negotiating with people I'm going to hire in an adversarial manner. My goal is to get them to join the team, and to pay them a salary they can feel proud of, and allow them to focus on doing great work for the company. But, I also have the very real constraint that I only have so much money to spend.
  - kamaal 13y ago
    >>Where is the disrespect? There is a clear display on lack of honesty here. And such people don't deserve any loyalty at all. If a company can't be honest with its own people they will definitely cheat their customers. >>so being upset is irrational. Right, if some doesn't know they are being cheated. Cheating is now perfectly justified. In fact if they discover later what happened its wrong on their part to be refuse to be cheated further.
    - balls187 13y ago
      >> There is a clear display on lack of honesty here. And such people don't deserve any loyalty at all. If a company can't be honest with its own people they will definitely cheat their customers. In the hypothetical scenario I outlined, was there a lack of honesty? There is an imbalance of information, certainly, but I don't think that information should be disclosed. >>> Right, if some doesn't know they are being cheated. Cheating is now perfectly justified. In fact if they discover later what happened its wrong on their part to be refuse to be cheated further. Along the same lines, where is the cheating occurring?
aeonsky 13y ago
I'd rather stay away from software jobs that want "rockstars" or "ninjas" or "gurus".
- balls187 13y ago
  Why? The cynic in me thinks that's self selecting.
  - Nursie 13y ago
    You might end up working with a bunch of self-described 'rockstars', 'ninjas' and 'gurus', who I should imagine would be unbearable to spend time around.
    - balls187 13y ago
      I wouldn't want to work with people who self describe as top performers, unless that classification is also given by their peers, performance reviews, and accomplishments.
eli_gottlieb 13y ago
Please don't use the word "rockstar" in a serious sentence.

gresrun 13y ago

If you are dissatisfied with your compensation, speak up before you go looking elsewhere. If you say you're leaving, do it. Accepting a counter-offer is almost always a bad idea; no matter how much money is on the table. After accepting a counter-offer you are bought and paid-for, you decided to stay for the cash and, unfortunately, your loyalty to the company will be questioned forever after.

gutnor 13y ago
That is the standard advice and I have agreed with it for a long time. However, that highly depends on the company, especially large one. There is very often a disconnect between line management, HR, and all the parallel hierarchies that make up the company - meaning there is no direct relationship between people caring about your loyalty and people that have the means to do anything about it. Personally, nowadays I'm almost convinced there is no drawback. I have seen just too many people offered a red carpet for years after such threats.
paul_f 13y ago
Maybe you didn't know you were worth more, and neither did your employer?
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
brownbat 13y ago
> your loyalty to the company will be questioned If loyalty means "you can fuck me over and I'll stick around," it's a vice, not a virtue. Loyalty keeps sweatshops fully staffed while keeping good businesses from replacing anyone who is a bad fit. In fact, why would any business want a "loyal" employee, someone incapable of recognizing or acting in situations that have grown lopsided? If someone struggles with strategic decisionmaking in their own life, why trust them to aggressively act in the best interests of the business? Feudalism is long dead. The occasional job change shouldn't merit a scarlet letter.
- wpietri 13y ago