3 ms·

"I'm almost convinced that the EU, as it is today, cannot survive if it is not further integrated." Small south eu country here. I totally agree with you. And

by twobits 13y ago

"I'm almost convinced that the EU, as it is today, cannot survive if it is not further integrated." Small south eu country here. I totally agree with you. And you make good points showing that. The only thing I disagree, is that I think eu is moving towards a less democratic way (if it survives). Not talking about the eu parliament, but about who it sides with in the economic crisis. It sides with big economic interests, which are at wrong, instead with the "eu idea" and people.

sentenza 13y ago
True, they haven't really helped much in the economic crisis but if I compare the European Parliament to our Bundestag here in Germany, I can tell you that things could be worse. A lot. Maybe you heared some things about how the German Bundesbank is using its position in the ECB governing council to push its hard-Euro no-default there-is-no-problem stance. The Bundestag is a Parliament in which three quarter of representatives believe every word (well most words) that the Bundesbank says. So the European Parliament is not that bad by comparison.
- twobits 13y ago
  No, I didn't know that. Thanks for the info. ..imo, hard euro with no common budget/redistribution/stronger integration, is the death of eu. ..Btw, given what you said, and your local knowledge, do you think it's possible that germany is positioning itself for a possible end of the euro, and return to the deutschmark? Both in a "general feeling" and in more direct talking about that?
  - sentenza 13y ago
    Absolutely not. It is important to understand that, even though it might seem different from the outside, the German political elite believes they are doing "the right thing". The problem is that, even though evidence to the contrary is mounting, they are intellectually invested in what they advocate so much now that a change of course has to be forced on them. Nobody here (except some far-right fringe people) is talking of a return to the D-Mark and I'd even say that no government would survive it. If things got so bad that the EU takes serious damage (for instance abolishing the Euro) and it was obvious that Merkel and her deputies were responsible, they would be kicked out of office. Here is why: If I may generalize about "the Germans" again, you must understand that our history is burned into our memory, not only because we repeatedly visit it in school, but also because nobody's family was left untouched by the war, the other war and the guilt. Most people here see the unification of Europe as the only possible way to "break the spell" of perpetual war. And yes, the primary concern is still war, not economics or free trade or all that other stuff growing on top. Consider this: While it is perfectly possible that a handfull of equally-sized states can coexist peacefully with each other for quite some time, the moment that there is a war, there will always be a next war. I mean 1971 gives us 1914 gives us 1939 and then bam! Irrevocably wedded to France, peace for 70 years. This is how the EU is seen here. Even if you might find it unlikely that the quasi-demilitarized Germany of today would participate or even start a war, look at what's going on in Hungary. That shit could eventually boil over and start igniting if the EU doesn't get its act together. And even there we have the perpetual war machine! The current problems of Hungary are largely entangled with how Hungary was partitioned up after ... WWI. EDIT: I might add that I personally am a somewhat extreme adherent of "the European Idea". However, my descirption of how the EU is percieved as the guarantee for peace does hold for the general population. Interesingly, most young people don't even realize how fragile (and young!) the EU still is.

by twobits 13y ago

sentenza 13y ago

True, they haven't really helped much in the economic crisis but if I compare the European Parliament to our Bundestag here in Germany, I can tell you that things could be worse. A lot. Maybe you heared some things about how the German Bundesbank is using its position in the ECB governing council to push its hard-Euro no-default there-is-no-problem stance. The Bundestag is a Parliament in which three quarter of representatives believe every word (well most words) that the Bundesbank says. So the European Parliament is not that bad by comparison.

twobits 13y ago
No, I didn't know that. Thanks for the info. ..imo, hard euro with no common budget/redistribution/stronger integration, is the death of eu. ..Btw, given what you said, and your local knowledge, do you think it's possible that germany is positioning itself for a possible end of the euro, and return to the deutschmark? Both in a "general feeling" and in more direct talking about that?
- sentenza 13y ago
  Absolutely not. It is important to understand that, even though it might seem different from the outside, the German political elite believes they are doing "the right thing". The problem is that, even though evidence to the contrary is mounting, they are intellectually invested in what they advocate so much now that a change of course has to be forced on them. Nobody here (except some far-right fringe people) is talking of a return to the D-Mark and I'd even say that no government would survive it. If things got so bad that the EU takes serious damage (for instance abolishing the Euro) and it was obvious that Merkel and her deputies were responsible, they would be kicked out of office. Here is why: If I may generalize about "the Germans" again, you must understand that our history is burned into our memory, not only because we repeatedly visit it in school, but also because nobody's family was left untouched by the war, the other war and the guilt. Most people here see the unification of Europe as the only possible way to "break the spell" of perpetual war. And yes, the primary concern is still war, not economics or free trade or all that other stuff growing on top. Consider this: While it is perfectly possible that a handfull of equally-sized states can coexist peacefully with each other for quite some time, the moment that there is a war, there will always be a next war. I mean 1971 gives us 1914 gives us 1939 and then bam! Irrevocably wedded to France, peace for 70 years. This is how the EU is seen here. Even if you might find it unlikely that the quasi-demilitarized Germany of today would participate or even start a war, look at what's going on in Hungary. That shit could eventually boil over and start igniting if the EU doesn't get its act together. And even there we have the perpetual war machine! The current problems of Hungary are largely entangled with how Hungary was partitioned up after ... WWI. EDIT: I might add that I personally am a somewhat extreme adherent of "the European Idea". However, my descirption of how the EU is percieved as the guarantee for peace does hold for the general population. Interesingly, most young people don't even realize how fragile (and young!) the EU still is.