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That's true, but that doesn't explain why North is at the top. For example, the Chinese also live in the Northern hemisphere. But as the Al Jazeera article po

That's true, but that doesn't explain why North is at the top. For example, the Chinese also live in the Northern hemisphere. But as the Al Jazeera article points out, the Chinese put south at the top. The Chinese discovered the compass, and they called it a "south-pointing stone." It could easily have ended up the other way. The Chinese sent fleets on their own voyages of discovery. But the emperor died, another emperor took over, and the exploration program was cancelled.

ars 13y ago
> That's true, but that doesn't explain why North is at the top. As said earlier in the thread: Because of the North Star.
- na85 13y ago
  It's not quite so one dimensional as that.
  - gertef 13y ago
    North and South are in the same dimension.
- tanzam75 13y ago
  > As said earlier in the thread: Because of the North Star. But that doesn't explain why north points up. It only explains why the compass rose points north. As the article says: "These maps had no real up or down — pictures and words faced in all sorts of directions, generally pointing inward from the edge of the map." So now you have another step: you have to orient the map. Why north at the top? Why not "orient" the map so that east faces up? Or west? Or south? The compass rose is just a reference -- you could face it in any way. This is why the article comes up with all sorts of explanations and then finally says that it was just a convention established by Ptolemy. Because at every step of the way between the North Star and north-up, you could ask "Why this way? Why not the other way?" And then when that is answered, you could ask "Why?" again. And so on. But when something is arbitrary, then there is no "Why?" to be answered. It's just arbitrary.
  - JoeAltmaier 13y ago
    I think that goes too far. We have a context: the convention of reading with the letters facing up, orienting pictures with words, etc. You want to see where a hand compass is pointing, you turn until the needle points ahead or 'up'; then you read off the heading (or the other way around). Not too far from that, to writing it on paper that way.
    - tanzam75 13y ago
      > You want to see where a hand compass is pointing, you turn until the needle points ahead or 'up'; then you read off the heading (or the other way around). Not too far from that, to writing it on paper that way. No, that's not how you use a compass to determine which way you're facing. (Perhaps that's what you meant by "or the other way around.") To use a compass, you turn it until the magnetic needle points to "North" on the dial. Then you read the heading from the top of the dial, and that's the direction you're facing. Note that the needle might point in any direction. The magnetic needle only points ahead (up) if you are facing north." What you're accomplishing by turning the compass is calibrating* the dial, so that it is aligned with the local magnetic field. In other words, so that "North" on the dial is actually magnetic north. The only thing that your example says is that you have a strong cultural expectation that north is up. So you face north, and the compass needle points up. Circular reference. But suppose we'd stuck with the traditional European map orientation -- with east being up. (Hence the verb "to orient," related to the adjective "oriental.") Then we'd think it perfectly natural for the compass rose to point left.
  - dangayle 13y ago
    Hold a compass straight in front of you. Now walk due east without re-orienting yourself. That is in essence what you are doing if you use the N star as a guide, but insist on orienting the map with east on top.
    - tanzam75 13y ago
      > Hold a compass straight in front of you. Now walk due east without re-orienting yourself. That is in essence what you are doing if you use the N star as a guide, but insist on orienting the map with east on top. Take out the compass and rotate yourself until the needle points left. You are now facing due east. Start walking. Anyway, what does this have to do with north facing up on maps? The procedure does not change based on which direction north faces on a map. Up, down, left, or right, it's irrelevant to the task of walking due east using a compass. And what does "without re-orienting yourself" mean? Should I face north and walk sideways? I don't get it. It's usually best to re-orient yourself to face in the direction that you're traveling.
dragontamer 13y ago
The Chinese didn't navigate by stars. They navigated by compass first. Europeans navigated by the stars, and then learned how to use a compass when it was too cloudy to see the stars. Besides, there is no "south star", even if you live in the southern hemisphere.
- darkmighty 13y ago
  Well there's the southern cross, which acts like one :)
- est 13y ago
  > The Chinese didn't navigate by stars They do both. THe modern reference: they actually call their latest GPS copycat BeiDou http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beidou_Navigation_Satellite_System http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beidou_Navigation_Satellite_Sys... > The BeiDou Navigation System is named after the Big Dipper constellation, which is known in Chinese as Běidǒu. The name literally means "Northern Dipper", the name given by ancient Chinese astronomers to the seven brightest stars of the Ursa Major constellation
dragontamer 13y ago
Another thing: the Chinese fleets of discovery were much larger and extravagant than any fleet in history. http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/learning_history/1492/zhenghe_ship.jpg http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/learning_history/1492/zheng... Zheng He not only had bigger ships than the Columbus ships... but also had 300 ships at his command. (with over 50 of them being extremely large treasure ships). Zheng He's treasure ships had live crops and livestock growing on them. They were a fleet of ships designed to work independently, and go around the world. Zheng He traveled west first, to India. Afterwards, he planned to travel east (potentially to America). But that is when the Emperors changed and cut his explorations short. Zheng He most certainly had enough provisions to reach the Americas in the early 1400s.
- StefanKarpinski 13y ago
  Oh man, that would make for a fascinating alternate history – China discovers California and invades it sightly before Columbus discovers the Americas. The unfortunate Amerinds, get crushed from both sides instead of just from one. At some point the Europeans and Chinese clash in the middle of the Americas. Of course, China doesn't ever seemed to have too much colonialist inclination, which reduces the plausibility.
  - vorg 13y ago
    China's Zheng He fleets generally hugged the coast through Singapore, all the way around to Tanzania. That took them a long way, but Columbus went directly into the vast unknown. If China had tried what Columbus had... * the Pacific ocean is twice as wide as the Atlantic (I don't know anything about wind patterns here) * the Rockies are a lot more difficult than the Appalachians to get a military force with supply lines over * the Europeans on the East Coast can sail around Florida and up the Mississippi to attack or defend it, whereas the Panana Canal needed to be built first for the Chinese to benefit in this way * China didn't have "military inclination" because it was surround by SW dense forests, the Tianshan mountains in the west, desert in the north, and ocean elsewhere. They certainly ruled Korea when they had they chance, took over Xinjiang through the passage, South China, and the southwest when they could.
oofabz 13y ago
Columbus had to shop around before he found a monarch willing to bankroll his voyage. Portugal, Genoa, Venice, and England all turned him down before Spain accepted. Also, Spain took him on because there was intense competition between the European powers, and they didn't want Columbus working for anyone else. On the other hand, all of China was ruled by the Ming dynasty. When the new Emperor turned down the eastern expedition, Zheng He had no one else to turn to. The Emperor had no competitors so he had no incentive to find new lands first. Competition leads to innovation. Monopolies lead to stagnation. (This interpretation of events is from "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond.)
- vorg 13y ago
  > The Emperor had no competitors so he had no incentive to find new lands first. Competition leads to innovation. Monopolies lead to stagnation. From memory... The Ming around 1420-ish closed down the sea voyages to divert all military resources to defending the northern desert approaches to China. Because China had been ruled by the Mongols from 1250 to 1350, the dangers were fresh in the minds of the Chinese leadership when the tribes started raiding again, and building the Great Wall and Forbidden City for defense were more important than exploring and defending against the Great Southern Ocean.
  - oblio 13y ago
    Now only if the same emperor would have used that gunpowder invented by the Chinese to develop develop weapons better than bows to beat those Northern invaders. Oh wait, it was those pesky competitive Europeans that developed those weapons. You inadvertently made his point :)
- RyanMcGreal 13y ago
  > Spain took him on because there was intense competition between the European powers, and they didn't want Columbus working for anyone else. Spain was Facebook and Columbus was Instagram...
boomzilla 13y ago
Could it be just randomness? You can pick either way, and somehow one particular direction became more popular, and get over the "tipping point"? It's the same with traffic rule, right? We could either go on the left side, or the right side of the roads. We happened to pick the right side, and everyone is driving on the right side now. Oh wait, the poor Brits are driving on the left side, and traffic must be chaotic over there :)

ars 13y ago

> That's true, but that doesn't explain why North is at the top. As said earlier in the thread: Because of the North Star.

na85 13y ago
It's not quite so one dimensional as that.
- gertef 13y ago
  North and South are in the same dimension.
tanzam75 13y ago
> As said earlier in the thread: Because of the North Star. But that doesn't explain why north points up. It only explains why the compass rose points north. As the article says: "These maps had no real up or down — pictures and words faced in all sorts of directions, generally pointing inward from the edge of the map." So now you have another step: you have to orient the map. Why north at the top? Why not "orient" the map so that east faces up? Or west? Or south? The compass rose is just a reference -- you could face it in any way. This is why the article comes up with all sorts of explanations and then finally says that it was just a convention established by Ptolemy. Because at every step of the way between the North Star and north-up, you could ask "Why this way? Why not the other way?" And then when that is answered, you could ask "Why?" again. And so on. But when something is arbitrary, then there is no "Why?" to be answered. It's just arbitrary.
- JoeAltmaier 13y ago
  I think that goes too far. We have a context: the convention of reading with the letters facing up, orienting pictures with words, etc. You want to see where a hand compass is pointing, you turn until the needle points ahead or 'up'; then you read off the heading (or the other way around). Not too far from that, to writing it on paper that way.
  - tanzam75 13y ago
    > You want to see where a hand compass is pointing, you turn until the needle points ahead or 'up'; then you read off the heading (or the other way around). Not too far from that, to writing it on paper that way. No, that's not how you use a compass to determine which way you're facing. (Perhaps that's what you meant by "or the other way around.") To use a compass, you turn it until the magnetic needle points to "North" on the dial. Then you read the heading from the top of the dial, and that's the direction you're facing. Note that the needle might point in any direction. The magnetic needle only points ahead (up) if you are facing north." What you're accomplishing by turning the compass is calibrating* the dial, so that it is aligned with the local magnetic field. In other words, so that "North" on the dial is actually magnetic north. The only thing that your example says is that you have a strong cultural expectation that north is up. So you face north, and the compass needle points up. Circular reference. But suppose we'd stuck with the traditional European map orientation -- with east being up. (Hence the verb "to orient," related to the adjective "oriental.") Then we'd think it perfectly natural for the compass rose to point left.
- dangayle 13y ago
  Hold a compass straight in front of you. Now walk due east without re-orienting yourself. That is in essence what you are doing if you use the N star as a guide, but insist on orienting the map with east on top.
  - tanzam75 13y ago
    > Hold a compass straight in front of you. Now walk due east without re-orienting yourself. That is in essence what you are doing if you use the N star as a guide, but insist on orienting the map with east on top. Take out the compass and rotate yourself until the needle points left. You are now facing due east. Start walking. Anyway, what does this have to do with north facing up on maps? The procedure does not change based on which direction north faces on a map. Up, down, left, or right, it's irrelevant to the task of walking due east using a compass. And what does "without re-orienting yourself" mean? Should I face north and walk sideways? I don't get it. It's usually best to re-orient yourself to face in the direction that you're traveling.

dragontamer 13y ago

The Chinese didn't navigate by stars. They navigated by compass first. Europeans navigated by the stars, and then learned how to use a compass when it was too cloudy to see the stars. Besides, there is no "south star", even if you live in the southern hemisphere.

darkmighty 13y ago
Well there's the southern cross, which acts like one :)
est 13y ago
> The Chinese didn't navigate by stars They do both. THe modern reference: they actually call their latest GPS copycat BeiDou http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beidou_Navigation_Satellite_System http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beidou_Navigation_Satellite_Sys... > The BeiDou Navigation System is named after the Big Dipper constellation, which is known in Chinese as Běidǒu. The name literally means "Northern Dipper", the name given by ancient Chinese astronomers to the seven brightest stars of the Ursa Major constellation

dragontamer 13y ago

Another thing: the Chinese fleets of discovery were much larger and extravagant than any fleet in history. http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/learning_history/1492/zhenghe_ship.jpg http://www.digitalhistory.uh.edu/learning_history/1492/zheng... Zheng He not only had bigger ships than the Columbus ships... but also had 300 ships at his command. (with over 50 of them being extremely large treasure ships). Zheng He's treasure ships had live crops and livestock growing on them. They were a fleet of ships designed to work independently, and go around the world. Zheng He traveled west first, to India. Afterwards, he planned to travel east (potentially to America). But that is when the Emperors changed and cut his explorations short. Zheng He most certainly had enough provisions to reach the Americas in the early 1400s.

StefanKarpinski 13y ago
Oh man, that would make for a fascinating alternate history – China discovers California and invades it sightly before Columbus discovers the Americas. The unfortunate Amerinds, get crushed from both sides instead of just from one. At some point the Europeans and Chinese clash in the middle of the Americas. Of course, China doesn't ever seemed to have too much colonialist inclination, which reduces the plausibility.
- vorg 13y ago
  China's Zheng He fleets generally hugged the coast through Singapore, all the way around to Tanzania. That took them a long way, but Columbus went directly into the vast unknown. If China had tried what Columbus had... * the Pacific ocean is twice as wide as the Atlantic (I don't know anything about wind patterns here) * the Rockies are a lot more difficult than the Appalachians to get a military force with supply lines over * the Europeans on the East Coast can sail around Florida and up the Mississippi to attack or defend it, whereas the Panana Canal needed to be built first for the Chinese to benefit in this way * China didn't have "military inclination" because it was surround by SW dense forests, the Tianshan mountains in the west, desert in the north, and ocean elsewhere. They certainly ruled Korea when they had they chance, took over Xinjiang through the passage, South China, and the southwest when they could.

oofabz 13y ago

Columbus had to shop around before he found a monarch willing to bankroll his voyage. Portugal, Genoa, Venice, and England all turned him down before Spain accepted. Also, Spain took him on because there was intense competition between the European powers, and they didn't want Columbus working for anyone else. On the other hand, all of China was ruled by the Ming dynasty. When the new Emperor turned down the eastern expedition, Zheng He had no one else to turn to. The Emperor had no competitors so he had no incentive to find new lands first. Competition leads to innovation. Monopolies lead to stagnation. (This interpretation of events is from "Guns, Germs, and Steel" by Jared Diamond.)

vorg 13y ago
> The Emperor had no competitors so he had no incentive to find new lands first. Competition leads to innovation. Monopolies lead to stagnation. From memory... The Ming around 1420-ish closed down the sea voyages to divert all military resources to defending the northern desert approaches to China. Because China had been ruled by the Mongols from 1250 to 1350, the dangers were fresh in the minds of the Chinese leadership when the tribes started raiding again, and building the Great Wall and Forbidden City for defense were more important than exploring and defending against the Great Southern Ocean.
- oblio 13y ago
  Now only if the same emperor would have used that gunpowder invented by the Chinese to develop develop weapons better than bows to beat those Northern invaders. Oh wait, it was those pesky competitive Europeans that developed those weapons. You inadvertently made his point :)
RyanMcGreal 13y ago
> Spain took him on because there was intense competition between the European powers, and they didn't want Columbus working for anyone else. Spain was Facebook and Columbus was Instagram...

boomzilla 13y ago

Could it be just randomness? You can pick either way, and somehow one particular direction became more popular, and get over the "tipping point"? It's the same with traffic rule, right? We could either go on the left side, or the right side of the roads. We happened to pick the right side, and everyone is driving on the right side now. Oh wait, the poor Brits are driving on the left side, and traffic must be chaotic over there :)