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Being from Germany, I want to add that in some (good and bad) ways, Germany is more like Europe than France. 1. Decentralized. Germany is 16 states yelling at

Being from Germany, I want to add that in some (good and bad) ways, Germany is more like Europe than France. 1. Decentralized. Germany is 16 states yelling at each other, while France jumps when Paris calls. 2. Lots of high-tech, no Silicon Valley. There are _a lot_ of successful software companies in Germany, but most are set up like traditional companies, not startups. Also, they mostly serve pre-existing niches, such as the financial industry around Frankfurt. The same holds for Europe. 3. Unsexy. Yeah. While I don't actually care much about the public image of Germany, I am saddened that the European idea has lost its appeal and continues losing it. I mean, what could _possibly_ go wrong? All in all, I'd say the hodge-podge muddle-through way of things you see in Europe comes more natural to Germany than France.

netcan 13y ago
We're getting pretty abstract. I think germany lent the eu its regulatory approach so its definitely got that in common. France's chaotic mix of abstract ideas (egality..), arsenal of widely divergent interpretations of them and populism is closer to the eu's politics. Germans build roads to have road. The French build roads as an expression of some confusingly abstract political idea.
- twobits 13y ago
  "Germans build roads to have road. The French build roads as an expression of some confusingly abstract political idea." The common theme is always who is to be f*ed and pay the bill, the taxpayers, and who is to get the profit and benefits, the big, connected, private interests.
sirkneeland 13y ago
All true thoughts, although I am happier the "European idea" (which in your case I take to mean as a federated superstate, do correct me if I am wrong) would be replaced by a looser, EFTA type arrangement. I mean, wouldn't that lead to more decentralization (and thus innovation, and competition, and yes, yelling at each other but that's how you get the best ideas, not "the center declares an idea and everyone else implements it") As an added bonus, it's more democratic.
- sentenza 13y ago
  Yes, I'm one of those superstate people. I understand where you are coming from, but am much more pessimistic about the viability of a EFTA-type agreement. In fact, I'm almost convinced that the EU, as it is today, cannot survive if it is not further integrated. Both these statements of mine hinge on my observation that the strength of a political entity can only be determined at a time of crisis. For instance, the internal economic imbalances of the EU will always make some countries overall net-winners and some net-losers with regards to trade balances. This will inevitably lead to crises. The USA have just as much imbalance between their states as we have between our member states, but they have one thing that we don't: Federal redistribution. If you live in Alabama and recieve social aid, get farming subsidies or are employed by the military, that is paid for by the whole, not just by Alabama. So it doesn't matter if Alabama is bleeding money in all directions. In the EU, this is not the case. I would thus expect an EFTA-EU to fracture or implode when the economic interests of the "big" countries are not aligned for a prolonged period of time. Nobody wants to live as a net-loser in perpetuity. Also, the EU actually has built-in decentralization! If you look at the contracts, there is ample mention of the "subsidiarity principle" and when you take a look at the legislation, it becomes clear that they actually mean it. There is even some grumbling from the highly-centralized EU states, such as France or Poland, about the increasing significance of the sub-national organizational structures (regions). The democracy thing could be fixed, if the will was there. Assuming, hypothetically, that things continued to go the way they have gone for the last decades, the EU actually will become progressively more democratic. After all, the EU parliament only came into the power it currently has with the Lisbon treaty. If the political will to unite Europe dissapears, the EU will collapse like a house of cards, for all the institutions and legal frameworks it has right now can't hold it together alone.
  - twobits 13y ago
    "I'm almost convinced that the EU, as it is today, cannot survive if it is not further integrated." Small south eu country here. I totally agree with you. And you make good points showing that. The only thing I disagree, is that I think eu is moving towards a less democratic way (if it survives). Not talking about the eu parliament, but about who it sides with in the economic crisis. It sides with big economic interests, which are at wrong, instead with the "eu idea" and people.
twobits 13y ago
"3. Unsexy. Yeah. While I don't actually care much about the public image of Germany, I am saddened that the European idea has lost its appeal and continues losing it. I mean, what could _possibly_ go wrong?" Coming from a small financial crisis stricken country at the periphery of europe, I would like to tell you this: There is no "germany". And there is no "those lazy leaches". You have swallowed the bait full. You, are not "germany". And I am not "whatever". Generalizations are the root of all hiding. Your interests are not the same as deutsche bank's interests. Mine interests, are not the same as the corrupted (among others, by german interests) local politicians. They say "germany" to make you think you are one. They say the "lazy" to give you an external enemy. Creating external enemies, is perfect for hiding your industries' and bankers' fing you as well as me. If you live/work in germany, in general, your salary is artificially lowered, to f you, and indebt other countries, to serve the top industrialists and bankers. You pay for the debt, and then you and me pay again for the payment.
- sentenza 13y ago
  I think you overinterpreted what I wrote there. In fact, I generally do not feel very German at all. Having lived and travelled all over Europe and speaking a few languages, I noticed a few years ago that those people from Berlin or Hamburg or Munich are as similar or dissimilar to me as those from Madrid or Vienna or Coventry or Rome or Porto. Just recently I wrote a comment in a German blog where I advocated the removal of the "Germany" layer because it complicates copyright so much. Seriously, my glorious Hessen and above that: Europe! From the outside we here in Germany seem so homogeneous, but there are a lot of cultural differences within Germany. And believe me, those Berliners can get to your nerves... This also reminds me of a little anecdote: When I was in Spain with ERASMUS, I went around with a lot of Italian students. Whenever we came across a Deutsche Bank logo, I pointed it out and said "German Mafia". Many laughs were had.

netcan 13y ago

We're getting pretty abstract. I think germany lent the eu its regulatory approach so its definitely got that in common. France's chaotic mix of abstract ideas (egality..), arsenal of widely divergent interpretations of them and populism is closer to the eu's politics. Germans build roads to have road. The French build roads as an expression of some confusingly abstract political idea.

twobits 13y ago
"Germans build roads to have road. The French build roads as an expression of some confusingly abstract political idea." The common theme is always who is to be f*ed and pay the bill, the taxpayers, and who is to get the profit and benefits, the big, connected, private interests.

sirkneeland 13y ago

All true thoughts, although I am happier the "European idea" (which in your case I take to mean as a federated superstate, do correct me if I am wrong) would be replaced by a looser, EFTA type arrangement. I mean, wouldn't that lead to more decentralization (and thus innovation, and competition, and yes, yelling at each other but that's how you get the best ideas, not "the center declares an idea and everyone else implements it") As an added bonus, it's more democratic.

sentenza 13y ago
Yes, I'm one of those superstate people. I understand where you are coming from, but am much more pessimistic about the viability of a EFTA-type agreement. In fact, I'm almost convinced that the EU, as it is today, cannot survive if it is not further integrated. Both these statements of mine hinge on my observation that the strength of a political entity can only be determined at a time of crisis. For instance, the internal economic imbalances of the EU will always make some countries overall net-winners and some net-losers with regards to trade balances. This will inevitably lead to crises. The USA have just as much imbalance between their states as we have between our member states, but they have one thing that we don't: Federal redistribution. If you live in Alabama and recieve social aid, get farming subsidies or are employed by the military, that is paid for by the whole, not just by Alabama. So it doesn't matter if Alabama is bleeding money in all directions. In the EU, this is not the case. I would thus expect an EFTA-EU to fracture or implode when the economic interests of the "big" countries are not aligned for a prolonged period of time. Nobody wants to live as a net-loser in perpetuity. Also, the EU actually has built-in decentralization! If you look at the contracts, there is ample mention of the "subsidiarity principle" and when you take a look at the legislation, it becomes clear that they actually mean it. There is even some grumbling from the highly-centralized EU states, such as France or Poland, about the increasing significance of the sub-national organizational structures (regions). The democracy thing could be fixed, if the will was there. Assuming, hypothetically, that things continued to go the way they have gone for the last decades, the EU actually will become progressively more democratic. After all, the EU parliament only came into the power it currently has with the Lisbon treaty. If the political will to unite Europe dissapears, the EU will collapse like a house of cards, for all the institutions and legal frameworks it has right now can't hold it together alone.
- twobits 13y ago
  "I'm almost convinced that the EU, as it is today, cannot survive if it is not further integrated." Small south eu country here. I totally agree with you. And you make good points showing that. The only thing I disagree, is that I think eu is moving towards a less democratic way (if it survives). Not talking about the eu parliament, but about who it sides with in the economic crisis. It sides with big economic interests, which are at wrong, instead with the "eu idea" and people.

twobits 13y ago

"3. Unsexy. Yeah. While I don't actually care much about the public image of Germany, I am saddened that the European idea has lost its appeal and continues losing it. I mean, what could _possibly_ go wrong?" Coming from a small financial crisis stricken country at the periphery of europe, I would like to tell you this: There is no "germany". And there is no "those lazy leaches". You have swallowed the bait full. You, are not "germany". And I am not "whatever". Generalizations are the root of all hiding. Your interests are not the same as deutsche bank's interests. Mine interests, are not the same as the corrupted (among others, by german interests) local politicians. They say "germany" to make you think you are one. They say the "lazy" to give you an external enemy. Creating external enemies, is perfect for hiding your industries' and bankers' fing you as well as me. If you live/work in germany, in general, your salary is artificially lowered, to f you, and indebt other countries, to serve the top industrialists and bankers. You pay for the debt, and then you and me pay again for the payment.

sentenza 13y ago
I think you overinterpreted what I wrote there. In fact, I generally do not feel very German at all. Having lived and travelled all over Europe and speaking a few languages, I noticed a few years ago that those people from Berlin or Hamburg or Munich are as similar or dissimilar to me as those from Madrid or Vienna or Coventry or Rome or Porto. Just recently I wrote a comment in a German blog where I advocated the removal of the "Germany" layer because it complicates copyright so much. Seriously, my glorious Hessen and above that: Europe! From the outside we here in Germany seem so homogeneous, but there are a lot of cultural differences within Germany. And believe me, those Berliners can get to your nerves... This also reminds me of a little anecdote: When I was in Spain with ERASMUS, I went around with a lot of Italian students. Whenever we came across a Deutsche Bank logo, I pointed it out and said "German Mafia". Many laughs were had.