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This went from "insightful" to "rant" pretty quickly. I was with you until "mistook PHP for a worthwhile general-purpose web development language". That's exact

This went from "insightful" to "rant" pretty quickly. I was with you until "mistook PHP for a worthwhile general-purpose web development language". That's exactly what PHP is, a worthwile general-purpose web development language. I understand your grievances with PHP's semantic issues, and I can appreciate that PHP's lack of support for newer, common language paradigms inhibits growth in professional development. But you replied to a guy who starts his comment with "As a hobbyist". Most of what PHP is used for is for small web development projects that in no way need optional strong typing and full functional support. At the beginning of your comment you say that if PHP is your only programming language than this deficit leaves you at a disadvantage. Well no shit! There's no silver bullet language that can do everything for everyone 100% of the time. In one breath you lambaste using PHP as your only language; in another you identify that PHP's lack of support for x, y, and z cause the developer to stagnate in learning new things. It seems you condemn using PHP for everything, and then are upset that it can't do everything! To this I would say use the right tool for the job.

aaronem 13y ago
You seem to see "insightful" and "rant" as mutually exclusive. I don't agree, but that's merely a quibble; to address the meat of your response, I say that, while of course you're right that no language is ideal in all cases, PHP exists in a unique local pessimum compounded of its attractiveness to novice programmers and its unmatched ability to hamper them from learning lessons they will find useful in becoming familiar with languages other than PHP -- indeed, it is far more successful at making it harder, not easier, for novices to gain a grasp of any other language, and it is precisely this trap which incurs my loathing. Small web development projects, as you say, do not require strong typing, first-class functions, &c. But they certainly can in many cases be improved by these capabilities, and, in any case, few languages which offer them outright require their use; meanwhile, a language which either fails entirely to offer them, or worse offers a broken, awful version of such functionality to newbies who are not equipped to recognize such enormities and are thus vulnerable to the fallacy that that's how such things are and should be done everywhere, is one which can inflict enormous harm on people who frankly don't know enough yet to look out for themselves -- precisely the sort of people, in other words, which PHP so successfully attracts, through its presentation as the right tool for every web-facing job. Perhaps you mistook my colorful phrase, "that syphilitic temptress of innocents", for mere hyperbole, and failed to recognize it as the precise, if metaphorical, description which it is. If you have so mistaken me, then I hope this comment helps to clear up the matter somewhat.
- mikegioia 13y ago
  Haha, ok fair enough. I agree with everything you just said. I honestly wish PHP would implement these features and break backwards compat for those same reasons.
Thiz 13y ago
Thanks mike for your defense. The internet is such a wonderful place where we start a fight with someone we don't know if it's a dog with a keyboard or a guy with 25 yrs programming experience with fluency in 22 programming languages. But what do I know? I am just a hobbyist. ;-)
- aaronem 13y ago
  No one with the experience you describe is just a hobbyist. Nonetheless, I stand by what I said above.

aaronem 13y ago

You seem to see "insightful" and "rant" as mutually exclusive. I don't agree, but that's merely a quibble; to address the meat of your response, I say that, while of course you're right that no language is ideal in all cases, PHP exists in a unique local pessimum compounded of its attractiveness to novice programmers and its unmatched ability to hamper them from learning lessons they will find useful in becoming familiar with languages other than PHP -- indeed, it is far more successful at making it harder, not easier, for novices to gain a grasp of any other language, and it is precisely this trap which incurs my loathing. Small web development projects, as you say, do not require strong typing, first-class functions, &c. But they certainly can in many cases be improved by these capabilities, and, in any case, few languages which offer them outright require their use; meanwhile, a language which either fails entirely to offer them, or worse offers a broken, awful version of such functionality to newbies who are not equipped to recognize such enormities and are thus vulnerable to the fallacy that that's how such things are and should be done everywhere, is one which can inflict enormous harm on people who frankly don't know enough yet to look out for themselves -- precisely the sort of people, in other words, which PHP so successfully attracts, through its presentation as the right tool for every web-facing job. Perhaps you mistook my colorful phrase, "that syphilitic temptress of innocents", for mere hyperbole, and failed to recognize it as the precise, if metaphorical, description which it is. If you have so mistaken me, then I hope this comment helps to clear up the matter somewhat.

mikegioia 13y ago
Haha, ok fair enough. I agree with everything you just said. I honestly wish PHP would implement these features and break backwards compat for those same reasons.

Thiz 13y ago

Thanks mike for your defense. The internet is such a wonderful place where we start a fight with someone we don't know if it's a dog with a keyboard or a guy with 25 yrs programming experience with fluency in 22 programming languages. But what do I know? I am just a hobbyist. ;-)

aaronem 13y ago
No one with the experience you describe is just a hobbyist. Nonetheless, I stand by what I said above.