5 ms·

> The Arc Knows No Borders says the Swiss bank of Switzerland, the country that has closed its boarders. Last week's immigration referendum has certainly close

by antr 13y ago

> The Arc Knows No Borders says the Swiss bank of Switzerland, the country that has closed its boarders. Last week's immigration referendum has certainly closed any hopes of Switzerland benefiting from a diversified, thriving tech industry. Europeans will go to London, Berlin, Paris, Madrid, Amsterdam, etc before going to Switzerland.

ithkuil 13y ago
Did it close the borders even for highly qualified workers "invited" by the companies? If no, is this so different than the U.S.?
- antr 13y ago
  They are implementing quotas. No different to the US. Hence, "Switzerland's answer" is status quo.
- ThePhysicist 13y ago
  No, the Swiss referendum that was carried out last week (and which the commenter refers to) was about stopping a treaty on "free movement of persons" which Switzerland was about to sign with the European Union. Such a treaty would have effectively allowed citizens of the EU to live and work in Switzerland without having to obtain a visa or residence permit first (it would not have allow them to profit from social security or other benefits, though). Since the referendum was accepted (though with a really thin majority of 50.3 %) it will force Switzerland to renegotiate the treaty with the EU, which in fact already suspended further negotiations with Switzerland by itself. Immigration of qualified workers will still be possible and encouraged by Switzerland, though. I think the main motivation behind the referendum was the fear of "Überfremdung" (foreign infiltration), which is probably not entirely irrational with currently 25 % of people living in Switzerland being of foreign origin. So I think one should not overreact here.
  - chli 13y ago
    We've had the "free movement of persons" with the EU for over ten years now in Switzerland ! [1] And yes social security and other social insurances are also valid for EU people working in Switzerland.[2] [1] https://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/bfm/en/home/themen/fza_schweiz-eu-efta.html https://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/bfm/en/home/themen/fza_schw... [2] http://www.bsv.admin.ch/soziale_sicherheit/index.html?lang=en http://www.bsv.admin.ch/soziale_sicherheit/index.html?lang=e...
jre 13y ago
As a swiss, I'm ashamed and angry about this vote. But I'd like to point out that all the most economically active region voted against the proposal to limit immigration. Interestingly, there was a correlation between the low number of foreigners in a region and the acceptance rate of the proposal. Even the politicians in favor of the proposal immediately started asking for big quotas for their regions, so as not to hurt the economy - the irony... So I'm not quite sure what will happen and the EU seems quite pissed about it (and rightly so), but looking at the tiny majority (50.3%) and the numerous lies during the campaign ("no, the EU won't do anything about it if it gets accepted"), I'm pretty confident this will either result in a law with no effect or we'll have to vote again to choose if we want to continue working with the EU or not.
- antr 13y ago
  jre, i know the vote was very tight. i sympathise with you, and the other half. some of my closest friends are swiss, and i spend many winters and summers there (Nyon and Laussane). they certainly share your concerns. i also see the irony from within. additionally, switzerland, of all the european countries, is the one which has one of the lowest levels of immigration (both legal and illegal). i think an inexistent paranoia took over many of the no so educated voters. personally, i think the EU's stand needs to be tough, just make that 50.3% realise that what a mistake they've done. legislation won't go through until the summer, so lets hope much of the absurdity is not passed.
  - chli 13y ago
    antr I don't know where you got the idea that Switzerland has the lowest level of immigration of the european countries.... "Switzerland and Australia, with about a quarter of their population born outside the country, are the two countries with the highest proportion of immigrants in the world" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration#cite_ref-90 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration#cite_ref-90
    - _delirium 13y ago
      It is quite large, although not in a way that really aligns with the rhetoric of the anti-immigrant parties like SVP. They are mainly attacking "culturally foreign" immigrants who fail to assimilate and don't share Swiss values, mostly meaning Muslims, and secondarily meaning poor eastern Europeans. But the majority of immigrants to Switzerland are "culturally close" and assimilate fairly easily. The two biggest groups are: German immigrants to the German-speaking region of Switzerland, and Italian immigrants to the Italian-speaking region of Switzerland. Yet somehow SVP posters don't indicate that Bavarians and Milanese are the invaders... There are some more numbers here: http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/themen/01/07/blank/key/01/01.html http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/themen/01/07/bla... 23% of Switzerland's population are not Swiss citizens, and Germany+Italy+Portugal+France account for about half of that.
Kenji 13y ago
I respectfully disagree. This vote has nothing to do with "closing borders". What the Swiss people want is the reintroduction of quotas, so they're going back to how it has been for many decades. It worked perfectly well before, how should it suddenly stop working now? This is nothing but drama because the EU failed with their colonialism politics. Did you actually read the proposed changes in the law that will now go into the Swiss constitution? The law ensures the autonomy of Switzerland and prevents the EU from forcing arbitrary migration laws on it. Also, the new law isn't about racism, but a state with working social systems has to control the borders more rigorously, or else it gets steamrolled.
- levosmetalo 13y ago
  It's all fine what Switzerland did, but by introducing the quota they practically singlesidedly canceled one of the agreements with EU that was part of the broader package. They have free trade, no customs, no tax on money transfers, right for swiss citizens to work and live throughout EU without work or stay permit. Right now, since they cancelled their side of the agreement, the whole package is up for renegotiation. They voted, they had right to vote how they voted, just don't be surprised if that decision has some other consequences they won't like.
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
  - chmars 13y ago
    No customs? Switzerland is NOT part of the European Union Customs Union. Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Customs_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Customs_Union for further information. Etc. And there is not the whole package up for renegotiation, only 7 of 100+ bilateral agreements between the EU and Switzerland.
- yulaow 13y ago
  Eu forced what? If I remember well Swiss and EU had an agreement about that: it means that the government of Swiss signed voluntarily a contract
disputin 13y ago
London is too expensive. Low budget start-ups contribute to thriving tech industry, and London not only excludes them but is increasingly expensive. It's experiencing something similar to SF, from what I read about SF, a hollowing out of the middle class who want some quality of life but can't compete with the multi-millionaires. A European country with sun, sea, sandy beaches, mountains, lots of space (Spain, I'm looking at you) would be attractive if it went out of its way to encourage start-ups. It would have to highlight a multilingual location so that people can fumble through beginner Spanish confident with a fall back, but I for one would race over. More foreign entrepreneurs attracted, more local jobs created.
- omegant 13y ago
  I guess you are thinking in Mallorca. Sunny, better connected by flights with Europe than with the Iberian peninsula, lot´s of European expats living here, proportion of locals speaking at least English quite high compared to other parts of Spain... If only we could have some better entrepreneurship laws...
- collyw 13y ago
  Barcelona is pretty good. Very international city (Catalan is actually the first language here for many, but most speak both Spanih, and some English), but Spanish bureaucracy is a nightmare.
- Markinhos 13y ago
  yeah, but the Spanish rulers cannot see further than 4 years, so they are taxing the entrepreneurs and introducing stupid regulations meanwhile they support the friendly big companies with tailored laws. All of that while the corruption is rampant. From a spaniard.
zupatol 13y ago
Give us a little time. It's been only one week, the government and the politicians are still clueless about how to implement the text, while Europe is unleashing a mild shitstorm on the country. I bet that soon enough we will vote again about measures to fix this vote.
chmars 13y ago
Switzerland has NOT closed its borders. The Swiss people have voted against unregulated mass immigration from the European Union in a democratic referendum. That was basically the system until 2007 and is the default system for immigration outside the European Union. The US for example has not even unregulated mass immigration for Canadians …
- DrJokepu 13y ago
  The right of free movement of United States persons within the states of the union (US states are roughly comparably in size and population to EU member states) is protected by Article IV of the constitution, therefore, EU-style "unregulated mass immigration" does, in fact, exist in the United States.
  - baazaar 13y ago
    Yes, but Switzerland is not part of the EU. I guess that's why he compared it to USA with Canada.

by antr 13y ago

ithkuil 13y ago

Did it close the borders even for highly qualified workers "invited" by the companies? If no, is this so different than the U.S.?

antr 13y ago
They are implementing quotas. No different to the US. Hence, "Switzerland's answer" is status quo.
ThePhysicist 13y ago
No, the Swiss referendum that was carried out last week (and which the commenter refers to) was about stopping a treaty on "free movement of persons" which Switzerland was about to sign with the European Union. Such a treaty would have effectively allowed citizens of the EU to live and work in Switzerland without having to obtain a visa or residence permit first (it would not have allow them to profit from social security or other benefits, though). Since the referendum was accepted (though with a really thin majority of 50.3 %) it will force Switzerland to renegotiate the treaty with the EU, which in fact already suspended further negotiations with Switzerland by itself. Immigration of qualified workers will still be possible and encouraged by Switzerland, though. I think the main motivation behind the referendum was the fear of "Überfremdung" (foreign infiltration), which is probably not entirely irrational with currently 25 % of people living in Switzerland being of foreign origin. So I think one should not overreact here.
- chli 13y ago
  We've had the "free movement of persons" with the EU for over ten years now in Switzerland ! [1] And yes social security and other social insurances are also valid for EU people working in Switzerland.[2] [1] https://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/bfm/en/home/themen/fza_schweiz-eu-efta.html https://www.bfm.admin.ch/content/bfm/en/home/themen/fza_schw... [2] http://www.bsv.admin.ch/soziale_sicherheit/index.html?lang=en http://www.bsv.admin.ch/soziale_sicherheit/index.html?lang=e...

jre 13y ago

As a swiss, I'm ashamed and angry about this vote. But I'd like to point out that all the most economically active region voted against the proposal to limit immigration. Interestingly, there was a correlation between the low number of foreigners in a region and the acceptance rate of the proposal. Even the politicians in favor of the proposal immediately started asking for big quotas for their regions, so as not to hurt the economy - the irony... So I'm not quite sure what will happen and the EU seems quite pissed about it (and rightly so), but looking at the tiny majority (50.3%) and the numerous lies during the campaign ("no, the EU won't do anything about it if it gets accepted"), I'm pretty confident this will either result in a law with no effect or we'll have to vote again to choose if we want to continue working with the EU or not.

antr 13y ago
jre, i know the vote was very tight. i sympathise with you, and the other half. some of my closest friends are swiss, and i spend many winters and summers there (Nyon and Laussane). they certainly share your concerns. i also see the irony from within. additionally, switzerland, of all the european countries, is the one which has one of the lowest levels of immigration (both legal and illegal). i think an inexistent paranoia took over many of the no so educated voters. personally, i think the EU's stand needs to be tough, just make that 50.3% realise that what a mistake they've done. legislation won't go through until the summer, so lets hope much of the absurdity is not passed.
- chli 13y ago
  antr I don't know where you got the idea that Switzerland has the lowest level of immigration of the european countries.... "Switzerland and Australia, with about a quarter of their population born outside the country, are the two countries with the highest proportion of immigrants in the world" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration#cite_ref-90 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Immigration#cite_ref-90
  - _delirium 13y ago
    It is quite large, although not in a way that really aligns with the rhetoric of the anti-immigrant parties like SVP. They are mainly attacking "culturally foreign" immigrants who fail to assimilate and don't share Swiss values, mostly meaning Muslims, and secondarily meaning poor eastern Europeans. But the majority of immigrants to Switzerland are "culturally close" and assimilate fairly easily. The two biggest groups are: German immigrants to the German-speaking region of Switzerland, and Italian immigrants to the Italian-speaking region of Switzerland. Yet somehow SVP posters don't indicate that Bavarians and Milanese are the invaders... There are some more numbers here: http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/themen/01/07/blank/key/01/01.html http://www.bfs.admin.ch/bfs/portal/en/index/themen/01/07/bla... 23% of Switzerland's population are not Swiss citizens, and Germany+Italy+Portugal+France account for about half of that.

Kenji 13y ago

I respectfully disagree. This vote has nothing to do with "closing borders". What the Swiss people want is the reintroduction of quotas, so they're going back to how it has been for many decades. It worked perfectly well before, how should it suddenly stop working now? This is nothing but drama because the EU failed with their colonialism politics. Did you actually read the proposed changes in the law that will now go into the Swiss constitution? The law ensures the autonomy of Switzerland and prevents the EU from forcing arbitrary migration laws on it. Also, the new law isn't about racism, but a state with working social systems has to control the borders more rigorously, or else it gets steamrolled.

levosmetalo 13y ago
It's all fine what Switzerland did, but by introducing the quota they practically singlesidedly canceled one of the agreements with EU that was part of the broader package. They have free trade, no customs, no tax on money transfers, right for swiss citizens to work and live throughout EU without work or stay permit. Right now, since they cancelled their side of the agreement, the whole package is up for renegotiation. They voted, they had right to vote how they voted, just don't be surprised if that decision has some other consequences they won't like.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- chmars 13y ago
  No customs? Switzerland is NOT part of the European Union Customs Union. Check out https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Customs_Union https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Union_Customs_Union for further information. Etc. And there is not the whole package up for renegotiation, only 7 of 100+ bilateral agreements between the EU and Switzerland.
yulaow 13y ago
Eu forced what? If I remember well Swiss and EU had an agreement about that: it means that the government of Swiss signed voluntarily a contract

disputin 13y ago

London is too expensive. Low budget start-ups contribute to thriving tech industry, and London not only excludes them but is increasingly expensive. It's experiencing something similar to SF, from what I read about SF, a hollowing out of the middle class who want some quality of life but can't compete with the multi-millionaires. A European country with sun, sea, sandy beaches, mountains, lots of space (Spain, I'm looking at you) would be attractive if it went out of its way to encourage start-ups. It would have to highlight a multilingual location so that people can fumble through beginner Spanish confident with a fall back, but I for one would race over. More foreign entrepreneurs attracted, more local jobs created.

omegant 13y ago
I guess you are thinking in Mallorca. Sunny, better connected by flights with Europe than with the Iberian peninsula, lot´s of European expats living here, proportion of locals speaking at least English quite high compared to other parts of Spain... If only we could have some better entrepreneurship laws...
collyw 13y ago
Barcelona is pretty good. Very international city (Catalan is actually the first language here for many, but most speak both Spanih, and some English), but Spanish bureaucracy is a nightmare.
Markinhos 13y ago
yeah, but the Spanish rulers cannot see further than 4 years, so they are taxing the entrepreneurs and introducing stupid regulations meanwhile they support the friendly big companies with tailored laws. All of that while the corruption is rampant. From a spaniard.

zupatol 13y ago

Give us a little time. It's been only one week, the government and the politicians are still clueless about how to implement the text, while Europe is unleashing a mild shitstorm on the country. I bet that soon enough we will vote again about measures to fix this vote.

chmars 13y ago

Switzerland has NOT closed its borders. The Swiss people have voted against unregulated mass immigration from the European Union in a democratic referendum. That was basically the system until 2007 and is the default system for immigration outside the European Union. The US for example has not even unregulated mass immigration for Canadians …

DrJokepu 13y ago
The right of free movement of United States persons within the states of the union (US states are roughly comparably in size and population to EU member states) is protected by Article IV of the constitution, therefore, EU-style "unregulated mass immigration" does, in fact, exist in the United States.
- baazaar 13y ago
  Yes, but Switzerland is not part of the EU. I guess that's why he compared it to USA with Canada.