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How north ended up on top of the map
- ArekDymalski 13y agoTwo explanations came to my mind: 1. East - the direction where the Sun appears - was located on the right because the right hand had a special meaning for people. 2. South was located down (behind the back of someone reading the map) to provide the maximum amount of light to the reader.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- decentrality 13y agoA better "up" would be East, oriented to the Galaxy as a whole, rather than Earth's roll relative to the Sun.
- eCa 13y agoCompasses points to the poles, not the centre of the universe. I can see some advantages to have compasses and maps point the same way.
- JoeAltmaier 13y agoExcept, of course, that they don't. Magnetic north is up to5 degrees off of our polar axis (center of rotation). "Up to" not because it moves but depending on where you're standing they may line up, as they nearly do here in Iowa.
- GregBuchholz 13y agoMagnetic declination can vary by more than 5 degrees. Imagine standing between true north and magnetic north, then the compass will be 180 degrees off. Also, the location of the magnetic north pole changes over time, and moves about 35 miles per year. (Wikipedia has a cool animation of the changes over time since the year 1590). http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_declination http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnetic_declination http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Magnetic_Pole http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Magnetic_Pole
- JoeAltmaier 13y agoAren't a lot of sea navigators sailing between the north pole and magnetic north :) I suppose that will change though.
- decentrality 13y agoSure, but spatial orientation and temporal orientation are too important to leave to arbitrary tool particulars. It's really bad for the mind. I get your point ( with correction by @JoeAltmaier ) but with GPS and the like being the `new` tool, and with them needing new thought rather than continuation of the old "because we always did it that way"... I'd definitely go East in the future... along with changing calendars away from solar orientation ( Gregorian primarily ). But as with most things involving the masses, this all falls into the category of why most use Metric versus Imperial, and why that is such a radical change to expect. Still, great to see a post questioning "up" ...
- lmm 13y agoI don't think that's a fair comparison. Metric measures have genuine practical advantages in terms of unit conversions. Switching to East-oriented maps would just be change for the sake of change. (Also a map projection distorts at the poles, so it's best if the poles are in uninhabited areas that ships don't sail through)
- decentrality 13y agoHaving a spatial orientation relative to the universe is of practical value to conscious individuals. People with minds have a frame of reference. Updating that is important, since our reality is bounded by our mental frame as much by that, if not more by that, than by our knowledge. I get what you mean, if this were still a boat-based world. I am saying we are not in a boat-based world now. Our consciousness can re-orient. Since we don't live in a boat-based world for the most part, it'd be more helpful to tend toward an orientation to a place where people have minds more often than people have ships. Part of why the world is the way it is, is because we don't allow our minds and the mental framework of the masses follow forward to an overall update to what in the world is actually worth orienting to. So it's not change for change's sake. It's updating to be true to what we know, giving our minds the benefit of advancing onto a better framework. Digital maps don't distort for curves. They just keep going with the surface of the planet. Remaining true to a boat-based world is a disservice to mind-having individuals.
- baddox 13y agoEarth's orientation in the galaxy isn't relevant when making maps of Earth's surface.
- jasallen 13y agoThe article does get to my base assumptions, but it takes awhile. (1) North Star was what people navigated by first, so would orient maps to that regardless of which way the words were written -- so people started writing the words to fit. (2) Compasses, pick north or south for same reason. North was picked because we were already using the North Star. It all just makes so much better intuitive sense than a "Conspiracy of Northern European Hegemony"
- asolove 13y agoI agree that "conspiracy" isn't the right explanation, but only people in the Northern Hemisphere would navigate by the North Star to begin with. So we're still stuck at this being based on who made the maps. But note that the vast majority of people (and therefore civilizations) live in the Northern Hemisphere, so this is statistics more than anything else.
- mcv 13y agoAs it happens, the vast majority of the people in the world live in the northern hemisphere. There's really not a lot of land in the southern hemisphere. The equator bisects Africa, South America and Indonesia. China, India, the Middle East, they're all in the northern hemisphere.
- tanzam75 13y agoThat's true, but that doesn't explain why North is at the top. For example, the Chinese also live in the Northern hemisphere. But as the Al Jazeera article points out, the Chinese put south at the top. The Chinese discovered the compass, and they called it a "south-pointing stone." It could easily have ended up the other way. The Chinese sent fleets on their own voyages of discovery. But the emperor died, another emperor took over, and the exploration program was cancelled.
- ars 13y ago> That's true, but that doesn't explain why North is at the top. As said earlier in the thread: Because of the North Star.
- georgecmu 13y agoInteresting historical exploration! The medieval debate on whether North, East or South should be at the top of the map could be linked to the disagreement on the East/North coordinate system convention of the modern day: ENU vs NED. Generally, land vehicles use the ENU (East-North-Up) convention, with East corresponding to the X axis and Z axis point up (against the gravity vector), while sea and aircraft use the NED (North-East-Down) convention, with X axis pointing North, and Z axis pointing down, aligned with the gravity vector.
- einhverfr 13y agoInterestingly they didn't get to a real explanation. It ended with the idea that for reasons lost to history, Ptolomy appears perhaps to have originated the practice. The thing is, I don't think that is lost to history. Ptolomy was amazingly meticulous and while he didn't spell out why, he was very clear about enough details I think this could be pieced together further.
- couchand 13y agoRegardless of the east vs. north distinction, I find it very unnatural to have an increasing vertical coordinate correspond to a movement towards the earth, if for no other reason that calling sea level zero and using mainly positive numbers above seems very convenient (for any vehicle except submarines).
- 7952 13y agoIf you are measuring sea depth it doesn't make sense to have a minus sign when most of your values will be negative. Also, it is important to remember that sea level is an entirely arbitrary concept that depends on your frame of reference. On nautical charts elevations are usually measured against the lowest tide level which will be different to the datum on GPS (for example).
- est 13y agoThe Chinese make south top because the emperor must facing south to rule. 南面称尊, 面南背北, 坐北朝南. So if they look at maps they sure must look at south.
- dschiptsov 13y agoBecause a compass points there?)
- ef4 13y agoBut a compass points south equally well.
- qbrass 13y agoBut when you're facing north, the sun is behind you shining on the map.
- daniel-cussen 13y agoOnly in the northern hemisphere.
- secstate 13y agoSeems to me the vast majority of habitable area lies in the Northern hemisphere, so this would likely be an issue of statistics, not subconscious superiority. Also, magnetic north on a compass is a natural way to orient something.
- mcv 13y ago> magnetic north on a compass is a natural way to orient something. More so than magnetic south?
- jessaustin 13y agoMore so than magnetic south? Perhaps more so than magnetic west-by-northwest, etc. The point is that there are two orientations that make sense with respect to compasses, rather than a hundred. As to why it's a particular one of the two available possibilities, that doesn't seem to require a conspiracy. At some point a critical mass of cartographers simply chose north rather than south.
- secstate 13y agoIndeed, and it doesn't take much data crunching to realize that the vast majority of habitable space on the planet is in the northern hemisphere. No slight to Africa, S. America, Australia and parts of India, but most of us are up here in the North. Blame plate tectonics before you blame your white European overlords
- mcv 13y agoI don't see it as a slight on Africa. I think most of Africa is also in the northern hemisphere.
- dllthomas 13y ago"Also, magnetic north on a compass is a natural way to orient something." Not any more natural than magnetic South, so far as I can see.
- jackgavigan 13y agoSomeone needs to tell McArthur that his "Universal Corrective Map of the World" is missing an entire continent.
- kiliancs 13y agoJust a small almost off-topic correction: Majorca was not Spanish-ruled in 1375, hence the name of the map "Catalan Atlas" attributed to cartographer Abraham Cresques as well as the mentioned nickname of "el jueu de les bruixoles" (in Catalan language).
- tokenadult 13y agoIt's an interesting article. I looked for references to Chinese practice. In Chinese, a (magnetic) compass is referred to as a "指南针," literally "south-indicating needle," so it does appear that south was the most important cardinal direction for the Chinese-speaking people who first used compasses. The article notes that old Arab maps showed south on the top, and attributed this to Chinese practice in map-making (which, if I remember correctly without sources at hand, was not fully uniform in this regard). Overall, the article offers an interesting discussion of trade-offs in map-making, including the trade-off of what country to put in the middle of a flat wall map that shows the whole world. I have become quite used to Chinese wall maps of the world in Mercator or equal-area projections that display China in the middle (left-to-right) and consequently split North America along both sides of the map.
- asolove 13y agoThe Chinese name has a good deal to do with cultural tradition. In traditional Chinese practice, north is the direction of evil. Cities were planned with gates at the south and rulers sat facing south. Magnets were actually first used as tools in geomancy rather than navigation. [1] This is why you would not call a magnet a points-north-needle. Of course, the association of North with evil is itself probably because of the Northern hemisphere seasons. North, cold, winter and evil and all grouped together in opposition to South, warm, summer, and good. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compass#Geomancy_and_feng_shui http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compass#Geomancy_and_feng_shui
- sardonicbryan 13y agoNot to mention the Mongols and Manchurians who were always trying to invade, as opposed to the tribute-paying Southern kingdoms. There's a reason they built the Great Wall to the north and not the south. Weather also does play a role, as the south was able to generate three harvests a year vs. two in the north. Historically, the capital of China has been in the south, only being moved north during the Ming (aka second to last) Dynasty. Not sure how much any of that has to do with compass points, but did want to elaborate a little on the cultural/historical context of north vs. south in China.
- Claudus 13y agoA pointed needle can be magnetized to point either North or South. But you definitely want some way of distinguishing between the two ends, and making one end pointed seems like the easiest way to do so. Maybe the magnetization just happened to result in the needle pointing North the first time and that set the standard. Really interesting article on making a compass. http://www.wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/navigation/rbimprovisedcompass01.html http://www.wildwoodsurvival.com/survival/navigation/rbimprov...
- acheron 13y agoI had heard a story once that the verb "orient" (as in finding where you are, aligning yourself/something else, etc.) was related to east being on the top of the map: you figured out which direction was "oriental" (i.e. eastern), and matched it with the top of the map. Later I researched it though and while that may have contributed, the more likely original meaning came from people wanting to build their churches and such to face east.
- kbutler 13y agoThe position of most prominence and importance on a map is the center, not the top. Would you use a map application that always put the location you searched for in the top left? The article referenced this briefly (Italy and Jerusalem were disappointed to not be at the center). The manufactured controversy that Europe and America are traditionally at the top of global maps is rather silly.
- squigs25 13y agoIs it unfair to also ask why the poles of the earth don't appear on the sides of a map?
- dhughes 13y agoEtymology Online has an interesting description for the word north: "...possibly ultimately from PIE ner- "left," also "below," as north is to the left when one faces the rising sun..."* It's pretty much arguing over our ancestors saying "to the left" in reference to the rising sun.
- nroose 13y agoThat article says that Stuart McArthur on Jan. 26, 1979!
- filereaper 13y agoThe West Wing covered this on the topic of the Mercator Projection: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVX-PrBRtTY http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVX-PrBRtTY cheers.
- jpatokal 13y agoFor Americans, it’s easy to think that our position, at the top left of most maps, is the intrinsically preferable one. This clearly was not written by a geek. Obviously the top right is preferable, since it's the only region where both decimal latitude and longitude are positive.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- ableal 13y agoInteresting map; also a site with an extensive collection of old maps: "While there is something endearing about the idea of an Indiana map maker in 1871 [ preparing an atlas http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/s/91721z http://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/s/91721z ] with Indiana squarely in the center of the world, the unfortunate side effect was that most of the Midwest disappeared into the gaping crease between atlas pages."