3 ms·

They better keep the backward compatibility, or you face the fiasco of Python 2 vs 3. The way that PHP deprecate API functions slowly over a period of time is p

by frik 13y ago

They better keep the backward compatibility, or you face the fiasco of Python 2 vs 3. The way that PHP deprecate API functions slowly over a period of time is prefered.

ohwp 13y ago
Well I was thinking about Python when I wrote my comment :) One of the problems with Python is that they almost encouraged writing code in 2 and porting it to 3. Also: Python 3 is almost a complete different language. It would be the same when PHP6 would use a + as string concatenation. Such changes would turn it into a complete different language.
- frik 13y ago
  Hopefully, PHP.net community won't go this route. The C-like syntax and the more or less stable code base (compatibility) are the main advantages over Python, Ruby, Go.
- Pacabel 13y ago
  Have you ever actually used Python 2 and Python 3? Python 3 is not "almost a complete different language", as you put it. Somebody who has used both will notice that Python 3 is syntactically and semantically almost identical to Python 2 in most respects. The main differences are in terms of removing redundancy, removing outdated features and functionality, increasing consistency, vastly improved Unicode support, and standard library improvements. A developer with Python 2 experience should be able to pick up Python 3 in about 30 minutes, at the most. That's not what we'd expect were Python 3 "almost a complete different language".
nikcub 13y ago
the migration from v4 to v5 went ok, considering there was a large blog campaign against end-of-lifing php v4 (I remember Matt Mullenweg, amongst many other bloggers and hosting companies, had the badge in their blog sidebars) and there was a lot of resistance to it. The big thing with PHPv5 was not just having to migrate code, but even at the time v4 was no longer supported and v5 had been out for years in benchmarks v4 was still 20-30% faster then v5. v5 to v6 could be a similarly smaller scale migration. The number of backwards incompatible changes in 4 to 5 wasn't long: http://www.php.net/manual/en/migration5.incompatible.php http://www.php.net/manual/en/migration5.incompatible.php Slashdot thread from the time with some details on the resistance: http://beta.slashdot.org/story/87591 http://beta.slashdot.org/story/87591 Migrating from v3 to v4 was also a backwards incompatible leap: http://www.physnet.uni-hamburg.de/physnet/php/migration4.html http://www.physnet.uni-hamburg.de/physnet/php/migration4.htm... So the PHP project has pulled it off twice already, perhaps they don't get enough credit for that.
Pacabel 13y ago
I don't see how the Python 2 to Python 3 transition has been a "fiasco". It may not have been the fastest transition, but that really doesn't matter in practice. Individuals and organizations with extensive Python 2.x software systems have been able to continue using those with no problems. Development has been able to continue on Python 3.x without needing to worry about backward compatibility with Python 2.x. It is a cleaner language, in many ways. Over time, we have indeed seen libraries, frameworks and users migrate from 2.x to 3.x as it benefits them. It's not something that's forced on them, causing disruption and anger. And so we've gradually seen Python 3.x starting to become more and more adopted, while Python 2.x slowly fades away. It's a non-disruptive, steady transition. If you want to talk about a real fiasco, Perl 6 is a much better example. Having no truly usable implementation after nearly 15 years, and thus basically no adoption, does qualify as a disaster in every sense.
- rjbond3rd 13y ago
  True, Perl 6 is an amazing fiasco! Every bad thing in software has happened, so it's the world's most sensational counter-example! Stay away! Hide your kids! P.S. But from close-up, it's the think-tank and test-bed of potential Perl 5 upgrades. Even if Perl 6 never ships, it's contributed tons of shipping code for Perl 5. Yes, it's hard to understand that from a distance, and it's not a PR dream, but oh well.
  - chromatic 13y ago
    But from close-up, it's the think-tank and test-bed of potential Perl 5 upgrades. I question this claim. Perhaps it's true of some syntactic features (`say` comes to mind as do some proposals for function signatures), but the semantics rarely translate over well (consider smartmatch). If you squint and tilt your head you can claim that Moose is an example of a feature designed in one language and implemented in another, but Moose is more an exercise in language/feature syncretism than it is porting something complete in implementation or design to Perl 5.

by frik 13y ago

They better keep the backward compatibility, or you face the fiasco of Python 2 vs 3. The way that PHP deprecate API functions slowly over a period of time is prefered.

ohwp 13y ago

Well I was thinking about Python when I wrote my comment :) One of the problems with Python is that they almost encouraged writing code in 2 and porting it to 3. Also: Python 3 is almost a complete different language. It would be the same when PHP6 would use a + as string concatenation. Such changes would turn it into a complete different language.

frik 13y ago
Hopefully, PHP.net community won't go this route. The C-like syntax and the more or less stable code base (compatibility) are the main advantages over Python, Ruby, Go.
Pacabel 13y ago
Have you ever actually used Python 2 and Python 3? Python 3 is not "almost a complete different language", as you put it. Somebody who has used both will notice that Python 3 is syntactically and semantically almost identical to Python 2 in most respects. The main differences are in terms of removing redundancy, removing outdated features and functionality, increasing consistency, vastly improved Unicode support, and standard library improvements. A developer with Python 2 experience should be able to pick up Python 3 in about 30 minutes, at the most. That's not what we'd expect were Python 3 "almost a complete different language".

nikcub 13y ago

the migration from v4 to v5 went ok, considering there was a large blog campaign against end-of-lifing php v4 (I remember Matt Mullenweg, amongst many other bloggers and hosting companies, had the badge in their blog sidebars) and there was a lot of resistance to it. The big thing with PHPv5 was not just having to migrate code, but even at the time v4 was no longer supported and v5 had been out for years in benchmarks v4 was still 20-30% faster then v5. v5 to v6 could be a similarly smaller scale migration. The number of backwards incompatible changes in 4 to 5 wasn't long: http://www.php.net/manual/en/migration5.incompatible.php http://www.php.net/manual/en/migration5.incompatible.php Slashdot thread from the time with some details on the resistance: http://beta.slashdot.org/story/87591 http://beta.slashdot.org/story/87591 Migrating from v3 to v4 was also a backwards incompatible leap: http://www.physnet.uni-hamburg.de/physnet/php/migration4.html http://www.physnet.uni-hamburg.de/physnet/php/migration4.htm... So the PHP project has pulled it off twice already, perhaps they don't get enough credit for that.

Pacabel 13y ago

I don't see how the Python 2 to Python 3 transition has been a "fiasco". It may not have been the fastest transition, but that really doesn't matter in practice. Individuals and organizations with extensive Python 2.x software systems have been able to continue using those with no problems. Development has been able to continue on Python 3.x without needing to worry about backward compatibility with Python 2.x. It is a cleaner language, in many ways. Over time, we have indeed seen libraries, frameworks and users migrate from 2.x to 3.x as it benefits them. It's not something that's forced on them, causing disruption and anger. And so we've gradually seen Python 3.x starting to become more and more adopted, while Python 2.x slowly fades away. It's a non-disruptive, steady transition. If you want to talk about a real fiasco, Perl 6 is a much better example. Having no truly usable implementation after nearly 15 years, and thus basically no adoption, does qualify as a disaster in every sense.

rjbond3rd 13y ago
True, Perl 6 is an amazing fiasco! Every bad thing in software has happened, so it's the world's most sensational counter-example! Stay away! Hide your kids! P.S. But from close-up, it's the think-tank and test-bed of potential Perl 5 upgrades. Even if Perl 6 never ships, it's contributed tons of shipping code for Perl 5. Yes, it's hard to understand that from a distance, and it's not a PR dream, but oh well.
- chromatic 13y ago
  But from close-up, it's the think-tank and test-bed of potential Perl 5 upgrades. I question this claim. Perhaps it's true of some syntactic features (`say` comes to mind as do some proposals for function signatures), but the semantics rarely translate over well (consider smartmatch). If you squint and tilt your head you can claim that Moose is an example of a feature designed in one language and implemented in another, but Moose is more an exercise in language/feature syncretism than it is porting something complete in implementation or design to Perl 5.