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Catan was my first German-style board game[0]. I've since "graduated" on to more complicated games, so I rarely play it anymore, but I find that it's an effect

Catan was my first German-style board game[0]. I've since "graduated" on to more complicated games, so I rarely play it anymore, but I find that it's an effective "gateway" German-style board game. Almost all of my friends who have played it love it, and have gone on to try (and enjoy) other German-style games. Catan is nice because it's sufficiently more complex (and well-designed) than Monopoly so as to be interesting, but not so complex that the rules take ages for newcomers to learn (as is often the case with many more complicated games). My personal favorite at the moment is Through the Ages[1], though I'm also a fan of Puerto Rico[2], as it's a rare example of a good game that has (almost) no random elements to its gameplay, such as rolling dice or shuffling a deck. (There is one set of tiles that is shuffled, but it's rather inconsequential and could easily be made deterministic if desired). Here in NYC, there's a cafe dedicated to board games and which was funded on Kickstarter[3]. As a huge board game geek, I'm really glad they're catching on. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-style_board_game https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/German-style_board_game [1] http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/25613/through-the-ages-a-story-of-civilization http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/25613/through-the-ages-a-... [2] http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3076/puerto-rico http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/3076/puerto-rico [3] http://www.uncommonsnyc.com/ http://www.uncommonsnyc.com/

tfgg 13y ago
In Oxford there's http://www.thirstymeeples.co.uk/ http://www.thirstymeeples.co.uk/. It's really good for finding new games, as they've got roaming board game specialists that will recommend a new game, help you get set up and teach you the basics. I just wish they'd get an alcohol license ;) (if only to help their profitability!) After playing a fair bit of Catan, I tend to get frustrated with how it's just a bit too random to establish complex strategy. I rather like Dominion for variability and depth.
- pliny 13y ago
  How do they keep the food off the games? Is everything covered in plastic?
  - tfgg 13y ago
    It's honestly not an issue I've ever seen come up... though I have wondered about how the extent of wear and tear on the games over time is going to affect their business model.
Casseres 13y ago
If you liked Puerto Rico, I recommend Dominion [0]. [0] http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/36218/dominion http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/36218/dominion
- idunno246 13y ago
  and if you like dominion, i recommend quarriors. Its dominion with dice and pvp http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/91536/quarriors http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/91536/quarriors
- lostlogin 13y ago
  I'll add a recommendation for Power Grid. Its interesting turn order and great build up to the end game is in contrast to the sudden halt that Puerto Rico seems to lurch into when it ends. http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2651/power-grid http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2651/power-grid
- wwweston 13y ago
  I like Dominion, it's got some of the same mechanics and is a an easier game to set up and explain. But it's missing one key thing that Puerto Rico has -- the depth of subtle interaction. Yes, there's some interaction cards in Dominion, but with PR there's this level of play that goes beyond blocking other players and into providing incentives for them to do things with a timing that's advantageous for you (and slightly less advantageous for them, but not so much that they can resist :). Not a whole lot of games like that.
  - VLM 13y ago
    If you want a highly interactive card game, maybe pathfinder card game? Be sure to go on line and print out the errata which is several times longer than the rules as shipped, although its certainly good fun even without corrections,or optimizations. Note its co-op which tends to be pretty binary, people seem to either love co-op or hate it.
graylights 13y ago
I'd argue that Catan is much less complex monopoly. Just that most people learn monopoly at a very young age so they never notice the complexity. Monopoly's rules are 6 pages of pure text. Catan's rules are 4 pages with some illustration. I don't understand at all why monopoly is the universal board game that every kid learns. It's a horrible game that drags on for hours. Even though I don't particular care for Catan it'd make a much better universal board game.
- mdmarra 13y ago
  Monopoly only drags on for hours if you play by silly house rules like $400 for landing on Go, money for landing on Free Parking, or not requiring an auction when passing on purchasing a property. All of these common house rules artificially extend the game by either injecting cash into the game or slowing the acquisition of property. A vanilla game of 4 player monopoly should take no more than an hour.
  - idProQuo 13y ago
    Speaking as someone who was bad at monopoly as a kid, those cash injections helped make the game feel more "fair". The vanilla rules make it really hard for a newbie to win against someone who actually knows how to play strategically. Now, that doesn't justify turning the game into a 4 hour slog, but it may help to explain why so many people use these "wimp rules".
    - mdmarra 13y ago
      There are definite "winning" strategies - like acquiring a monopoly on "jail row" and mortgaging all other properties to build it up as soon as possible. But does altering a game so that a child doesn't have to see the optimal moves from someone else do anything positive for anyone playing the game?
      - idProQuo 13y ago
        > But does altering a game so that a child doesn't have to see the optimal moves from someone else do anything positive for anyone playing the game? It didn't, it was a bandage to cover the fact that Monopoly is not a very good kids game.
pavel_lishin 13y ago
I also like the Uncommons, but I recommend checking their schedule if you'd like to visit - they often host events that end up making the place quite crowded (e.g., MtG tournaments)
epsylon 13y ago
To be honest, Monopoly is really a terrible game. It's mostly a game of luck (getting the good dice rolls). Catan is nice, but it does suffer from the same problem, the dice rolls influence way too much of the game. My personal favorites for long games are: The Game of Thrones board game, which is really awesome with the right set of players because it favors a lot diplomacy and strategy (the biggest problem with it is the randomness of the cards, but you can patch the rules to correct that); Eclipse, a 4X strategy game, quite balanced and with interesting rules (the bigger your empire is, the more costly your actions are); Civilization the board game, which is also extremely well balanced (all games I've played have seen cultural, financial, military and technological victories being competitive); and finally, for some good fun with friends, Battlestar Galactica (w/ expansions), which is a classical cooperative board game with traitors (except for a few twists). The tense atmosphere of the TV show is well re-transcribed in the game. For short to averagely long games, my favorites are Agrikola, Race for The Galaxy with the first two expansions (I've probably played hundreds of games of this one at this point), Olympos, Caylus, Power Grid (with slight patches to the rules), Smallworld... If you like games with no chance at all, try Intrigue. It is a game of pure negociation and backstabbing, and you may end up angry with your friends after playing it :-) (which is why it gets very polarized reviews on BGG and equivalents; much like the GoT board game, it is a game where you have to make alliances and betray them in order to win).
- michaelochurch 13y ago
  Catan really invented the "German" aesthetic. Yes, it has dice, and yes, there's luck; but it deserves a lot of credit because it was the first.
  - epsylon 13y ago
    I certainly wouldn't deny it. I'd much rather play Catan than most games, anyway.
    - michaelochurch 13y ago
      I created a card game (Ambition) to unify the German aesthetic and the trick-taking genre, which turned out to be hard to do. The problem is that it still has too much luck (dealt hands) to appeal to the German-style crowd, but it's too complex for the people who enjoy card games for simplicity [0] (e.g. Hearts, Poker). So it's kinda "between worlds". I feel like Catan might suffer that if it came out today, even though it's a great game in its own right. I like German games a lot but I'm not a fan of the "if it has dice or cards, it's not worth playing" mentality that I sometimes see. Games have a variety of social purposes. Sometimes I want to play something like Cards Against Humanity and sometimes I want to play Tigris and Euphrates. Ain't nothing wrong with that. (I do get annoyed with the people who only want to play Texas Hold 'em, though.) [0]: I don't mean to imply that these games are without depth. It's just that the rules are simple, and the complexity comes more from the players.
ntaso 13y ago
If you like Catan, check out one of the apps for Android/iPhone that uses an algorithm to make the basic setup more fair. I tried one for Android a few times and it was always a close call. The game was much more engaging for players that have a bad start than if you set up the game in the proposed fashion. Usually, the algorithms do stuff like: - if there's a 6 and 8 next to each other, the third field is always a 2 or 12 - there's always wood next to clay - a 2:1 harbor is never next to a huge field of one type of resource (say, 2-3 grassland) - etc.
- tmhedberg 13y ago
  > - if there's a 6 and 8 next to each other, the third field is always a 2 or 12 At least in the version of the game that I own, if you follow the prescribed setup rules, there can never be an adjacent 6 and 8. The terrain tiles are randomized, but the placement of the numbers on the tiles is deterministic, and results in a spatially uniform distribution of the high-yield numbers.
  - thedufer 13y ago
    > the placement of the numbers on the tiles is deterministic Not quite; the random placement of the desert tiles affects it, and you choose at random where to begin placing. That said, its still impossible for there to be adjacent 6s/8s.
  - ntaso 13y ago
    That's true. The apps distribute the numbers differently to make it more interesting. I don't know the exact rules, but I know that 6 and 8 may be adjacent, but if this happens, there must also be 2 or 12. Just give it a try, it's fun :)
nnnnni 13y ago
The problem with Puerto Rico is that there is often only one optimal move -- and sometimes that optimal move doesn't do anything for you, it only spoils someone else's strategy.
- nostrademons 13y ago
  But that's probably the best part of it. Your Puerto Rico skills go way up when you realize it's a game of relative advantage and not absolute advantage, and that your best strategy involves keeping careful tabs on what your opponents are about to do and either thwarting them or incentivizing them to do things that are good for you. It's like chess or go in that you need to keep careful tabs on your opponent, but can be played with 3-5 players.
frik 13y ago
I have no evidence but Catan [0] feels to me like a board-game copy of the german "The Settlers" [1] computer game. I own both the board game and the earlier video games. The Settlers video game is a more complex and is more like Age of Empires (a few years later) but with a focus on low level business and building up of an economy. You need a forester, lumberjack and a sawmill to get planks. You need a well, a corn farm, a corn mill and a baker to get bread. But the basic goal is to expand your territory like years later in Catan. Anno [2] video game series is very similar to The Settlers with a focus on trading ships and islands. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Settlers_of_Catan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Settlers_of_Catan [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Settlers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Settlers [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_(series) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_(series)
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- jon-wood 13y ago
  If you enjoy The Settlers you should find a copy of the 10th Anniversary Edition from somewhere - the game has been near perfectly ported to a modern engine without changing any of the actual rules.

tfgg 13y ago

In Oxford there's http://www.thirstymeeples.co.uk/ http://www.thirstymeeples.co.uk/. It's really good for finding new games, as they've got roaming board game specialists that will recommend a new game, help you get set up and teach you the basics. I just wish they'd get an alcohol license ;) (if only to help their profitability!) After playing a fair bit of Catan, I tend to get frustrated with how it's just a bit too random to establish complex strategy. I rather like Dominion for variability and depth.

pliny 13y ago
How do they keep the food off the games? Is everything covered in plastic?
- tfgg 13y ago
  It's honestly not an issue I've ever seen come up... though I have wondered about how the extent of wear and tear on the games over time is going to affect their business model.

Casseres 13y ago

If you liked Puerto Rico, I recommend Dominion [0]. [0] http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/36218/dominion http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/36218/dominion

idunno246 13y ago
and if you like dominion, i recommend quarriors. Its dominion with dice and pvp http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/91536/quarriors http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/91536/quarriors
lostlogin 13y ago
I'll add a recommendation for Power Grid. Its interesting turn order and great build up to the end game is in contrast to the sudden halt that Puerto Rico seems to lurch into when it ends. http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2651/power-grid http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/2651/power-grid
wwweston 13y ago
I like Dominion, it's got some of the same mechanics and is a an easier game to set up and explain. But it's missing one key thing that Puerto Rico has -- the depth of subtle interaction. Yes, there's some interaction cards in Dominion, but with PR there's this level of play that goes beyond blocking other players and into providing incentives for them to do things with a timing that's advantageous for you (and slightly less advantageous for them, but not so much that they can resist :). Not a whole lot of games like that.
- VLM 13y ago
  If you want a highly interactive card game, maybe pathfinder card game? Be sure to go on line and print out the errata which is several times longer than the rules as shipped, although its certainly good fun even without corrections,or optimizations. Note its co-op which tends to be pretty binary, people seem to either love co-op or hate it.

graylights 13y ago

I'd argue that Catan is much less complex monopoly. Just that most people learn monopoly at a very young age so they never notice the complexity. Monopoly's rules are 6 pages of pure text. Catan's rules are 4 pages with some illustration. I don't understand at all why monopoly is the universal board game that every kid learns. It's a horrible game that drags on for hours. Even though I don't particular care for Catan it'd make a much better universal board game.

mdmarra 13y ago
Monopoly only drags on for hours if you play by silly house rules like $400 for landing on Go, money for landing on Free Parking, or not requiring an auction when passing on purchasing a property. All of these common house rules artificially extend the game by either injecting cash into the game or slowing the acquisition of property. A vanilla game of 4 player monopoly should take no more than an hour.
- idProQuo 13y ago
  Speaking as someone who was bad at monopoly as a kid, those cash injections helped make the game feel more "fair". The vanilla rules make it really hard for a newbie to win against someone who actually knows how to play strategically. Now, that doesn't justify turning the game into a 4 hour slog, but it may help to explain why so many people use these "wimp rules".
  - mdmarra 13y ago
    There are definite "winning" strategies - like acquiring a monopoly on "jail row" and mortgaging all other properties to build it up as soon as possible. But does altering a game so that a child doesn't have to see the optimal moves from someone else do anything positive for anyone playing the game?
    - idProQuo 13y ago
      > But does altering a game so that a child doesn't have to see the optimal moves from someone else do anything positive for anyone playing the game? It didn't, it was a bandage to cover the fact that Monopoly is not a very good kids game.

pavel_lishin 13y ago

I also like the Uncommons, but I recommend checking their schedule if you'd like to visit - they often host events that end up making the place quite crowded (e.g., MtG tournaments)

epsylon 13y ago

To be honest, Monopoly is really a terrible game. It's mostly a game of luck (getting the good dice rolls). Catan is nice, but it does suffer from the same problem, the dice rolls influence way too much of the game. My personal favorites for long games are: The Game of Thrones board game, which is really awesome with the right set of players because it favors a lot diplomacy and strategy (the biggest problem with it is the randomness of the cards, but you can patch the rules to correct that); Eclipse, a 4X strategy game, quite balanced and with interesting rules (the bigger your empire is, the more costly your actions are); Civilization the board game, which is also extremely well balanced (all games I've played have seen cultural, financial, military and technological victories being competitive); and finally, for some good fun with friends, Battlestar Galactica (w/ expansions), which is a classical cooperative board game with traitors (except for a few twists). The tense atmosphere of the TV show is well re-transcribed in the game. For short to averagely long games, my favorites are Agrikola, Race for The Galaxy with the first two expansions (I've probably played hundreds of games of this one at this point), Olympos, Caylus, Power Grid (with slight patches to the rules), Smallworld... If you like games with no chance at all, try Intrigue. It is a game of pure negociation and backstabbing, and you may end up angry with your friends after playing it :-) (which is why it gets very polarized reviews on BGG and equivalents; much like the GoT board game, it is a game where you have to make alliances and betray them in order to win).

michaelochurch 13y ago
Catan really invented the "German" aesthetic. Yes, it has dice, and yes, there's luck; but it deserves a lot of credit because it was the first.
- epsylon 13y ago
  I certainly wouldn't deny it. I'd much rather play Catan than most games, anyway.
  - michaelochurch 13y ago
    I created a card game (Ambition) to unify the German aesthetic and the trick-taking genre, which turned out to be hard to do. The problem is that it still has too much luck (dealt hands) to appeal to the German-style crowd, but it's too complex for the people who enjoy card games for simplicity [0] (e.g. Hearts, Poker). So it's kinda "between worlds". I feel like Catan might suffer that if it came out today, even though it's a great game in its own right. I like German games a lot but I'm not a fan of the "if it has dice or cards, it's not worth playing" mentality that I sometimes see. Games have a variety of social purposes. Sometimes I want to play something like Cards Against Humanity and sometimes I want to play Tigris and Euphrates. Ain't nothing wrong with that. (I do get annoyed with the people who only want to play Texas Hold 'em, though.) [0]: I don't mean to imply that these games are without depth. It's just that the rules are simple, and the complexity comes more from the players.

ntaso 13y ago

If you like Catan, check out one of the apps for Android/iPhone that uses an algorithm to make the basic setup more fair. I tried one for Android a few times and it was always a close call. The game was much more engaging for players that have a bad start than if you set up the game in the proposed fashion. Usually, the algorithms do stuff like: - if there's a 6 and 8 next to each other, the third field is always a 2 or 12 - there's always wood next to clay - a 2:1 harbor is never next to a huge field of one type of resource (say, 2-3 grassland) - etc.

tmhedberg 13y ago
> - if there's a 6 and 8 next to each other, the third field is always a 2 or 12 At least in the version of the game that I own, if you follow the prescribed setup rules, there can never be an adjacent 6 and 8. The terrain tiles are randomized, but the placement of the numbers on the tiles is deterministic, and results in a spatially uniform distribution of the high-yield numbers.
- thedufer 13y ago
  > the placement of the numbers on the tiles is deterministic Not quite; the random placement of the desert tiles affects it, and you choose at random where to begin placing. That said, its still impossible for there to be adjacent 6s/8s.
- ntaso 13y ago
  That's true. The apps distribute the numbers differently to make it more interesting. I don't know the exact rules, but I know that 6 and 8 may be adjacent, but if this happens, there must also be 2 or 12. Just give it a try, it's fun :)

nnnnni 13y ago

The problem with Puerto Rico is that there is often only one optimal move -- and sometimes that optimal move doesn't do anything for you, it only spoils someone else's strategy.

nostrademons 13y ago
But that's probably the best part of it. Your Puerto Rico skills go way up when you realize it's a game of relative advantage and not absolute advantage, and that your best strategy involves keeping careful tabs on what your opponents are about to do and either thwarting them or incentivizing them to do things that are good for you. It's like chess or go in that you need to keep careful tabs on your opponent, but can be played with 3-5 players.

frik 13y ago

I have no evidence but Catan [0] feels to me like a board-game copy of the german "The Settlers" [1] computer game. I own both the board game and the earlier video games. The Settlers video game is a more complex and is more like Age of Empires (a few years later) but with a focus on low level business and building up of an economy. You need a forester, lumberjack and a sawmill to get planks. You need a well, a corn farm, a corn mill and a baker to get bread. But the basic goal is to expand your territory like years later in Catan. Anno [2] video game series is very similar to The Settlers with a focus on trading ships and islands. [0] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Settlers_of_Catan http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Settlers_of_Catan [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Settlers http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Settlers [2] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_(series) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anno_(series)

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
jon-wood 13y ago
If you enjoy The Settlers you should find a copy of the 10th Anniversary Edition from somewhere - the game has been near perfectly ported to a modern engine without changing any of the actual rules.