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I can use Go and C++ today without fear that code I write now won't be able to compile next month, due to significant language and/or library changes. The same

by Pacabel 13y ago

I can use Go and C++ today without fear that code I write now won't be able to compile next month, due to significant language and/or library changes. The same cannot be said for Rust. Since I can get perhaps 90% of the benefits of Rust today using other languages that I can actually use seriously, I might as well just use them. Had Rust been more stable in 2012, maybe it'd be a different situation today. And you can read my original comment again, if the big picture isn't clear to you. I hope it's obvious then that this is far more than just a few bad UI decisions involving Firefox. That is an issue, of course, don't get me wrong, but it clearly goes much beyond that. Almost all of Mozilla's major projects, from Firefox, to Thunderbird, to Firefox for Mobile, to Persona, to Firefox OS, and even Rust are suffering from some pretty serious detachment from the needs of their users. This is resulting in a decrease in adoption, like in the cases of Firefox and Thunderbird, limited adoption in the case of Firefox for Mobile, or basically no adoption in the cases of Firefox OS, Persona and Rust.

kibwen 13y ago
> Since I can get perhaps 90% of the benefits of Rust > today using other languages Incorrect, unless you're one of the rare few using Ada or Cyclone. Bare-metal memory safety is fundamentally impossible in both Go and C++. > Had Rust been more stable in 2012, maybe it'd be a > different situation today. Incorrect. I was there! And trust me when I say that 2012 Rust was very far off the mark. Rust is a language that was designed to be released in 2014, not 2012 or 2006 or 2038. > Almost all of Mozilla's major projects, from > Firefox, to Thunderbird, to Firefox for Mobile, to > Persona, to Firefox OS, and even Rust are suffering > from some pretty serious detachment from the needs > of their users. Citation needed. By any estimate, Firefox still has a fifth of all web traffic, with 500 million users. Firefox for Android has between 50 and 100 million downloads and is the highest-rated browser on the Android app store. Firefox OS continues to find new carriers and launch in new territories, which is more than can be said for Tizen or Meego or Symbian or Ubuntu Touch. And even though Rust hasn't even launched yet we're seeing month-over-month growth in traffic on every outlet. Your narrative really needs some rethinking!
pcwalton 13y ago
Go does not give you bare-metal control without GC and C++ does not give you safety. They do not give you "90%" of what you want, if you're in a domain that needs those features. If you need to write libraries to be used by Ruby, for example, Go does not give you 90% of that, it gives you 0%. If you need to write secure, memory-safe software, C++11 does not give you 90% of what you want, and anybody in the security field will tell you that. It has taken time to stabilize Rust because it is doing something that no language in industry has done. Rust is not designed to be a Go that's 10% better or a C++ that's 10% better. It's designed to let you do things you can't do in those languages. Like writing libraries callable by C that are guaranteed not to segfault. Or writing games that can't afford GC.

by Pacabel 13y ago

kibwen 13y ago

> Since I can get perhaps 90% of the benefits of Rust > today using other languages Incorrect, unless you're one of the rare few using Ada or Cyclone. Bare-metal memory safety is fundamentally impossible in both Go and C++. > Had Rust been more stable in 2012, maybe it'd be a > different situation today. Incorrect. I was there! And trust me when I say that 2012 Rust was very far off the mark. Rust is a language that was designed to be released in 2014, not 2012 or 2006 or 2038. > Almost all of Mozilla's major projects, from > Firefox, to Thunderbird, to Firefox for Mobile, to > Persona, to Firefox OS, and even Rust are suffering > from some pretty serious detachment from the needs > of their users. Citation needed. By any estimate, Firefox still has a fifth of all web traffic, with 500 million users. Firefox for Android has between 50 and 100 million downloads and is the highest-rated browser on the Android app store. Firefox OS continues to find new carriers and launch in new territories, which is more than can be said for Tizen or Meego or Symbian or Ubuntu Touch. And even though Rust hasn't even launched yet we're seeing month-over-month growth in traffic on every outlet. Your narrative really needs some rethinking!

pcwalton 13y ago

Go does not give you bare-metal control without GC and C++ does not give you safety. They do not give you "90%" of what you want, if you're in a domain that needs those features. If you need to write libraries to be used by Ruby, for example, Go does not give you 90% of that, it gives you 0%. If you need to write secure, memory-safe software, C++11 does not give you 90% of what you want, and anybody in the security field will tell you that. It has taken time to stabilize Rust because it is doing something that no language in industry has done. Rust is not designed to be a Go that's 10% better or a C++ that's 10% better. It's designed to let you do things you can't do in those languages. Like writing libraries callable by C that are guaranteed not to segfault. Or writing games that can't afford GC.