4 ms·

Interesting bits from one of the linked articles >In 2000, the World Health Organization ranked the French health system as the best over all in the world. Do

by nolok 13y ago

Interesting bits from one of the linked articles >In 2000, the World Health Organization ranked the French health system as the best over all in the world. Do you agree? >I question the W.H.O. methodology, which has serious problems with data reliability and the standards of comparison. A study I would take more seriously is one published last year by Ellen Nolte and Martin McKee in the journal Health Affairs. They examined avoidable mortality — that is, deaths whose risk of occurrence would be far lower if the population had access to appropriate health care interventions. In that study, based on data for the year 2000, France was also ranked No. 1, with the lowest rate of avoidable deaths. The United States was last, in 19th place, with the highest rate of avoidable deaths. That’s a severe indictment of our health care system in my judgment and calls attention, quite justifiably, to the high performance of the French health care system. http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/health-care-abroad-france/#h[IqtTas,2,3] http://prescriptions.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/09/11/health-car...

_pmf_ 13y ago
> The United States was last, in 19th place, with the highest rate of avoidable deaths. Alas, a negligible price to pay for Freedom™.
- swombat 13y ago
  France is a free country, by any sensible definition of the term. Sure, you can coin a definition of "free" that excludes France, but you can do that for any country, including (and perhaps especially) the United States. (or perhaps you were being sarcastic)
  - escape_goat 13y ago
    Purely on mechanics, the "by any sensible definition" clause does make this a classic "no true Scotsman" argument. What you probably wish to argue is something like: "Those unique 'American freedoms' that ostensibly result in such a crappy health care system --- and the inevitability and necessity of this is highly debatable --- do not contribute nearly as much to actual freedom as you seem to think." What you are actually arguing is: "There exists no sensible definition of freedom wherein the citizens of the United States are free and the citizens of France are not." A disagreement which continues from this point will devolve quickly into an argument about when and how ideas are "sensible". This is perhaps a really interesting topic when pursued in its own right, but the assertion has, at that point, effectively derailed future debate about the different freedoms enjoyed by the French and Americans.
  - mithras 13y ago
    Did the ™ not give it away?
  - ekianjo 13y ago
    > France is a free country, by any sensible definition of the term. haha. Funny comment. There are probably a thousands ways the US is more Free than France. Let's not start by checking all the administrative barriers to do ANYTHING in France. The US is certainly not an exemplary model for Freedom anymore, but trying to compare France and US in terms of Freedom is a lost battle.
    - Alex_MJ 13y ago
      Instead of tossing around hyperbole, can you perhaps point out some specifics?
      - ekianjo 13y ago
        Why don't you read "about democracy in America" from Tocqueville ? It's more than 200 years old but it's very relevant even to this day to understand the differences in terms of culture between France and the US. And the culture shapes the laws and the aspects of Freedom.
    - chris_mahan 13y ago
      I am french, and I agree.
      - fnsa 13y ago
        I am french, and I disagree.
      - julie1 13y ago
        I am french and I don't think playing the dick contest on who has the biggest freedom is smart. Freedom in USA and France is decreasing because citizens are not involving themselves in the functioning of the Republics we live in. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
      - rokhayakebe 13y ago
        I second Julie1 here, "When the citizen start to participate with their money, rather than their own self, the republic has been lost, taken away by the same politicians you are paying to write your laws and the militia you are paying for protection."
- GalacticDomin8r 13y ago
  More like Freedumb™, at least in our approach to healthcare.
adwf 13y ago
It's even worse when you consider one of the reasons why healthcare costs are so high in the US - people avoid getting early treatment because it costs so much. A vicous cycle. Whereas socialised healthcare can prevent a lot of illnesses in their early stages at a far lower cost, because people don't need to worry about going bankrupt after a doctors visit. And that's just looking at the direct cost to the patient, completely ignoring the costs to society and the economy. Having to treat severely ill patients in late-stage scenarios where the patient is now out of work for months on end. I still recall one story I heard during the Obamacare debate about a young father who died from a gum infection. His insurance had lapsed (unemployed) and he only had enough cash to pay for either painkillers or antibiotics, not both. He made the wrong choice unfortunately. This scenario does not exist where I'm from. Hell, I'm happy to pay for other people to get this kind of care. It still costs me less than the US system! NB: Having personally had a serious abcess that needed root canal in the past (was abroad so couldn't get immediate treatment), I can't honestly blame him for taking the painkillers, it is astonishingly painful.
- delinka 13y ago
  Even with healthcare insurance, people in the US don't get early treatment because insurance doesn't want to pay for "unnecessary" treatment.
matdrewin 13y ago
Grass is always greener at Your neighbours. I don't like when people focus 1 specific aspect of a country. I've seen Canada and Scandinavia also mentioned in replies further below. You have to look at the country as a whole. What people forget to mention is all the other less desirable traits of an economy. For example, I'm from Quebec, Canada and there are plenty of people that question the sustainability of our free health care with the aging population. There are tons of French people coming from France because they can't find a job over there.
- ekianjo 13y ago
  > Canada and there are plenty of people that question the sustainability of our free health care with the aging population Oh, the same questions should be asked in France as well, since the French Government needs to borrow 4 to 5 billions Euros on the market every few weeks to keep functioning. Of course it's not sustainable.

by nolok 13y ago

_pmf_ 13y ago

> The United States was last, in 19th place, with the highest rate of avoidable deaths. Alas, a negligible price to pay for Freedom™.

swombat 13y ago
France is a free country, by any sensible definition of the term. Sure, you can coin a definition of "free" that excludes France, but you can do that for any country, including (and perhaps especially) the United States. (or perhaps you were being sarcastic)
- escape_goat 13y ago
  Purely on mechanics, the "by any sensible definition" clause does make this a classic "no true Scotsman" argument. What you probably wish to argue is something like: "Those unique 'American freedoms' that ostensibly result in such a crappy health care system --- and the inevitability and necessity of this is highly debatable --- do not contribute nearly as much to actual freedom as you seem to think." What you are actually arguing is: "There exists no sensible definition of freedom wherein the citizens of the United States are free and the citizens of France are not." A disagreement which continues from this point will devolve quickly into an argument about when and how ideas are "sensible". This is perhaps a really interesting topic when pursued in its own right, but the assertion has, at that point, effectively derailed future debate about the different freedoms enjoyed by the French and Americans.
- mithras 13y ago
  Did the ™ not give it away?
- ekianjo 13y ago
  > France is a free country, by any sensible definition of the term. haha. Funny comment. There are probably a thousands ways the US is more Free than France. Let's not start by checking all the administrative barriers to do ANYTHING in France. The US is certainly not an exemplary model for Freedom anymore, but trying to compare France and US in terms of Freedom is a lost battle.
  - Alex_MJ 13y ago
    Instead of tossing around hyperbole, can you perhaps point out some specifics?
    - ekianjo 13y ago
      Why don't you read "about democracy in America" from Tocqueville ? It's more than 200 years old but it's very relevant even to this day to understand the differences in terms of culture between France and the US. And the culture shapes the laws and the aspects of Freedom.
  - chris_mahan 13y ago
    I am french, and I agree.
    - fnsa 13y ago
      I am french, and I disagree.
    - julie1 13y ago
      I am french and I don't think playing the dick contest on who has the biggest freedom is smart. Freedom in USA and France is decreasing because citizens are not involving themselves in the functioning of the Republics we live in. Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
    - rokhayakebe 13y ago
      I second Julie1 here, "When the citizen start to participate with their money, rather than their own self, the republic has been lost, taken away by the same politicians you are paying to write your laws and the militia you are paying for protection."
GalacticDomin8r 13y ago
More like Freedumb™, at least in our approach to healthcare.

adwf 13y ago

It's even worse when you consider one of the reasons why healthcare costs are so high in the US - people avoid getting early treatment because it costs so much. A vicous cycle. Whereas socialised healthcare can prevent a lot of illnesses in their early stages at a far lower cost, because people don't need to worry about going bankrupt after a doctors visit. And that's just looking at the direct cost to the patient, completely ignoring the costs to society and the economy. Having to treat severely ill patients in late-stage scenarios where the patient is now out of work for months on end. I still recall one story I heard during the Obamacare debate about a young father who died from a gum infection. His insurance had lapsed (unemployed) and he only had enough cash to pay for either painkillers or antibiotics, not both. He made the wrong choice unfortunately. This scenario does not exist where I'm from. Hell, I'm happy to pay for other people to get this kind of care. It still costs me less than the US system! NB: Having personally had a serious abcess that needed root canal in the past (was abroad so couldn't get immediate treatment), I can't honestly blame him for taking the painkillers, it is astonishingly painful.

delinka 13y ago
Even with healthcare insurance, people in the US don't get early treatment because insurance doesn't want to pay for "unnecessary" treatment.

matdrewin 13y ago

Grass is always greener at Your neighbours. I don't like when people focus 1 specific aspect of a country. I've seen Canada and Scandinavia also mentioned in replies further below. You have to look at the country as a whole. What people forget to mention is all the other less desirable traits of an economy. For example, I'm from Quebec, Canada and there are plenty of people that question the sustainability of our free health care with the aging population. There are tons of French people coming from France because they can't find a job over there.

ekianjo 13y ago
> Canada and there are plenty of people that question the sustainability of our free health care with the aging population Oh, the same questions should be asked in France as well, since the French Government needs to borrow 4 to 5 billions Euros on the market every few weeks to keep functioning. Of course it's not sustainable.