4 ms·

I suspect the true reason there is no programmer's union is because we don't need one yet - the supply/demand balance is massively weighted in our favor and so

by choult 13y ago

I suspect the true reason there is no programmer's union is because we don't need one yet - the supply/demand balance is massively weighted in our favor and so we have no general need for the kind of protection and collective bargaining that other, more labor-saturated professions do.

gaius 13y ago
Yes and no. In certain sectors yes, but other sectors have suffered from outsourcing etc. And the whole industry is plagued by ageism. I'm not arguing for a system of seniority (another big turn-off about unions) but something does need to be done about that. That's the funny thing about IT, if you do your job well no-one knows you're there. So it makes you an easy target for cost cutting. Some executive signs an outsourcing deal and looks like a business genius for saving so much money. Then the wheels come off, but by that time he's already gotten his bonus/promotion/new job.
- trhway 13y ago
  didn't unions made outsourcing [say in auto industry] even more appealing by increasing the cost of local unionized labor? Looking at the auto industry, i think programmers just don't want that happening to them, including the "benefit" of having one more layer of clueless bosses and additional set of processes ("work rules") - the existing managers are clueless enough and existing processes definitely a drag to add more of them. I'm not against all unions. I'm against unions how they exist in the US - auto industry, BART workers', police, teachers - police one actually works really well for its members, though it is more like an exception because of its power as a racket organization ...
michaelt 13y ago
I think there's probably multiple reasons. Coal mines and steel mills and oil rigs are expensive to set up because they're so capital intensive. If a coal mine worker decides he'd like to start his own coal mine probably he won't have the capital or the connections to get the capital. There's no path between company-worker and company-owner or vice-versa so the two groups seem like distinct classes. On the other hand, in programming all you need to start a company is a computer and an internet connection - and we all have those at home already. Probably you've got a few friends from university who have their own startups now. There's a clear path from being an employee to being a founder/owner, so employees and owners don't seem like distinct classes.

by choult 13y ago

gaius 13y ago

Yes and no. In certain sectors yes, but other sectors have suffered from outsourcing etc. And the whole industry is plagued by ageism. I'm not arguing for a system of seniority (another big turn-off about unions) but something does need to be done about that. That's the funny thing about IT, if you do your job well no-one knows you're there. So it makes you an easy target for cost cutting. Some executive signs an outsourcing deal and looks like a business genius for saving so much money. Then the wheels come off, but by that time he's already gotten his bonus/promotion/new job.

trhway 13y ago
didn't unions made outsourcing [say in auto industry] even more appealing by increasing the cost of local unionized labor? Looking at the auto industry, i think programmers just don't want that happening to them, including the "benefit" of having one more layer of clueless bosses and additional set of processes ("work rules") - the existing managers are clueless enough and existing processes definitely a drag to add more of them. I'm not against all unions. I'm against unions how they exist in the US - auto industry, BART workers', police, teachers - police one actually works really well for its members, though it is more like an exception because of its power as a racket organization ...

michaelt 13y ago

I think there's probably multiple reasons. Coal mines and steel mills and oil rigs are expensive to set up because they're so capital intensive. If a coal mine worker decides he'd like to start his own coal mine probably he won't have the capital or the connections to get the capital. There's no path between company-worker and company-owner or vice-versa so the two groups seem like distinct classes. On the other hand, in programming all you need to start a company is a computer and an internet connection - and we all have those at home already. Probably you've got a few friends from university who have their own startups now. There's a clear path from being an employee to being a founder/owner, so employees and owners don't seem like distinct classes.