4 ms·

Concerning 'taxation is theft': you are redefining theft. Theft is, by the definition everyone uses in practice, something immoral. Something that we don't want

Concerning 'taxation is theft': you are redefining theft. Theft is, by the definition everyone uses in practice, something immoral. Something that we don't want and that should be punished. If taxation is positive-sum, even to the victim, then it cannot possibly be theft. By asserting that 'taxation is theft', you muddle the discussion, because the point in question is whether taxation is immoral.

gaius 17y ago
Theft means taking someone's property without their consent. If we had a system by which taxation had some sort of optional element (e.g. it's up to you but if you don't pay you can't vote) then we could debate the morality of taxation. But from the perspective of the taxed, under the present system, there is no moral element - it's simply beyond your control.
- jacquesm 17y ago
  killing people = murder, but if the government does it it is no longer murder. Theft, murder and whole pile of other 'bad' things are legal when the entity that defines what is legal and what is not does it. That entity can be changed, that is why you have the vote so in the long run we all collectively determine what is legal and what is not. That's oversimplified but it shows you that tax is legal and theft is not legal so therefore they can't be equivalent.
  - billswift 17y ago
    Nobody said they are equivalent; taxation is a subset of theft, theft that is approved by the government. That is all taxation is theft (coercive appropriation) but not all theft is taxation (legal coercive appropriation).
    - jacquesm 17y ago
      If you think that taxation is a subset of theft I suggest that you try getting the government indicted for stealing because of them taking your taxes. Theft is defined by the government, not by you.
- RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
  > Theft means taking someone's property without their consent. Actually, it doesn't. Well, it certainly isn't the whole story. IANAL, but this snippet from a web page accords almost precisely with my memory of what I learned when I had cause to deal with such a matter professionally: > A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly > appropriates property belonging to another with > the intention of permanently depriving the other > of it ... According to law, it's not theft if you did it honestly, or if you intended to give it back. "Consent" is not part of the legal definition. EDIT: I note that the wikipedia article mentions consent. These things will differ between English, American and other country's laws. Certainly in the case of taxes the intent is to deprive permanently, so it comes down to whether it's dishonest. Since the government makes the laws, and the government won't want taxation to be declared theft, we can deduce that taxation isn't dishonest. According to the government.

gaius 17y ago

Theft means taking someone's property without their consent. If we had a system by which taxation had some sort of optional element (e.g. it's up to you but if you don't pay you can't vote) then we could debate the morality of taxation. But from the perspective of the taxed, under the present system, there is no moral element - it's simply beyond your control.

jacquesm 17y ago
killing people = murder, but if the government does it it is no longer murder. Theft, murder and whole pile of other 'bad' things are legal when the entity that defines what is legal and what is not does it. That entity can be changed, that is why you have the vote so in the long run we all collectively determine what is legal and what is not. That's oversimplified but it shows you that tax is legal and theft is not legal so therefore they can't be equivalent.
- billswift 17y ago
  Nobody said they are equivalent; taxation is a subset of theft, theft that is approved by the government. That is all taxation is theft (coercive appropriation) but not all theft is taxation (legal coercive appropriation).
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    If you think that taxation is a subset of theft I suggest that you try getting the government indicted for stealing because of them taking your taxes. Theft is defined by the government, not by you.
RiderOfGiraffes 17y ago
> Theft means taking someone's property without their consent. Actually, it doesn't. Well, it certainly isn't the whole story. IANAL, but this snippet from a web page accords almost precisely with my memory of what I learned when I had cause to deal with such a matter professionally: > A person is guilty of theft if he dishonestly > appropriates property belonging to another with > the intention of permanently depriving the other > of it ... According to law, it's not theft if you did it honestly, or if you intended to give it back. "Consent" is not part of the legal definition. EDIT: I note that the wikipedia article mentions consent. These things will differ between English, American and other country's laws. Certainly in the case of taxes the intent is to deprive permanently, so it comes down to whether it's dishonest. Since the government makes the laws, and the government won't want taxation to be declared theft, we can deduce that taxation isn't dishonest. According to the government.