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This has been a knock-down drag-out fight and a lot of fun to watch. VW hates the UAW, but they can't say as much because being seen as anti-union would hurt th

This has been a knock-down drag-out fight and a lot of fun to watch. VW hates the UAW, but they can't say as much because being seen as anti-union would hurt their image back in Germany. Thanks to NRLB rules, VW can't make any statements about rewarding the workers for not unionizing, but that hasn't stopped Senator Corker from saying he heard it on good authority that VW would bring production of a second car to the Chattanooga plant if the workers rejected the UAW. That was a dirty/brilliant move on Corker's part, which both advanced his anti-union agenda and set the expectation that VW will add a second production line to its factory, which VW has been considering since the Passat hasn't been selling as well as they initially planned. Framing the unionization effort as a "works council" was ingenious marketing on UAW's part, but apparently wasn't enough to persuade the Tennessee good old boys to take the Rust Belt gambit. If you've ever heard stories about how GM & Co. run their factories you'll be amazed anything gets built at all.

ChrisNorstrom 13y ago
I want to ask you. Do you know anything about Detroit? Everything I read from people who've left there blame the unions for driving out the industry through ever increasing pay raises to the point where industry can't afford to stay. You seem to be more knowledgeable about the unions so I figured I'd ask you.
- leobelle 13y ago
  I think there's definitely a localization problem with Unions. If Unions were everywhere and manufacturers had nowhere to run to, we'd probably have a really healthy middle class.
  - gcb0 13y ago
    you don't need globalization to kill the stillborn unions from the us. the same dysfunctional individualism that make so many workers opt out for the short term (or in this case the promise of middle term) extra profit also make the leaders shaft the ones that join for a little criminal profit. german workers have the cultural pragmatism on their favour.
  - logicchains 13y ago
    Translation: everyone who wasn't an auto worker would be slightly poorer. American auto unions fundamentally undermined any incentive auto manufacturers had to innovate. If a man with dynamite digs more holes than one with a shovel, is that man's increased productivity the result of his own effort? No. Auto unions claim pay raises proportional to increases in output per worker (productivity), regardless of the sources of these increases. This means manufacturers have no incentive to invest in better facilities or to innovate, as any profit from this innovation would be eaten up as wages.
    - lsc 13y ago
      >Translation: everyone who wasn't an auto worker would be slightly poorer. I think the theory is that if all workers were unionized, they would be able to negotiate for a larger share of the profits that are currently taken by the owners of capital. >Auto unions claim pay raises proportional to increases in output per worker (productivity), regardless of the sources of these increases. You are assuming a world where the union has absolute power; The role of a union in a market system is to negotiate with the owners of capitol. Agree or not, (and my personal beliefs are closer to yours than to the comment you are responding to.) it's important to at least understand what your opponent is trying to say.
      - logicchains 13y ago
        >I think the theory is that if all workers were unionized, they would be able to negotiate for a larger share of the profits that are currently taken by the owners of capital. How would them negotiating for a larger share of the profits be a good thing when they were already taking enough of a share of the profits to drive auto companies into bankruptcy? >You are assuming a world where the union has absolute power; The role of a union in a market system is to negotiate with the owners of capitol. If you have laws where only union members are allowed to work in auto factories, or that non-union members aren't allowed to work there, then the unions do have absolute power within those industries. >It's important to at least understand what your opponent is trying to say. I understand what they're trying to say. I'm just responding that paying auto workers more would not result in a net benefit to the middle class. If as the parent's scenario implies there is nowhere else for manufacturers to find labor (which implies no outsourcing), then for every increase in automobile prices that's brought about by increases in auto workers' wages, that means less resources available for car buyers to spend on other things. Unions in the American style cannot make the pie bigger, they can only divide it differently. More pie to unionised workers hence means less pie for everyone else (including the other workers who now can't find work as auto makers can afford fewer employees as they have to pay them more).
pacificmint 13y ago
> but they can't say as much because being seen as anti-union would hurt their image back in Germany. That's not about their image. The German steelworkers union, IG Metal, has several seats on the Volkswagen board and they made sure that Volkswagen wouldn't oppose the unionization. Actually, between the Union and the Workers Councils, they hold half of the board.
deleted 13y ago
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ChrisNorstrom 13y ago

I want to ask you. Do you know anything about Detroit? Everything I read from people who've left there blame the unions for driving out the industry through ever increasing pay raises to the point where industry can't afford to stay. You seem to be more knowledgeable about the unions so I figured I'd ask you.

leobelle 13y ago
I think there's definitely a localization problem with Unions. If Unions were everywhere and manufacturers had nowhere to run to, we'd probably have a really healthy middle class.
- gcb0 13y ago
  you don't need globalization to kill the stillborn unions from the us. the same dysfunctional individualism that make so many workers opt out for the short term (or in this case the promise of middle term) extra profit also make the leaders shaft the ones that join for a little criminal profit. german workers have the cultural pragmatism on their favour.
- logicchains 13y ago
  Translation: everyone who wasn't an auto worker would be slightly poorer. American auto unions fundamentally undermined any incentive auto manufacturers had to innovate. If a man with dynamite digs more holes than one with a shovel, is that man's increased productivity the result of his own effort? No. Auto unions claim pay raises proportional to increases in output per worker (productivity), regardless of the sources of these increases. This means manufacturers have no incentive to invest in better facilities or to innovate, as any profit from this innovation would be eaten up as wages.
  - lsc 13y ago
    >Translation: everyone who wasn't an auto worker would be slightly poorer. I think the theory is that if all workers were unionized, they would be able to negotiate for a larger share of the profits that are currently taken by the owners of capital. >Auto unions claim pay raises proportional to increases in output per worker (productivity), regardless of the sources of these increases. You are assuming a world where the union has absolute power; The role of a union in a market system is to negotiate with the owners of capitol. Agree or not, (and my personal beliefs are closer to yours than to the comment you are responding to.) it's important to at least understand what your opponent is trying to say.
    - logicchains 13y ago
      >I think the theory is that if all workers were unionized, they would be able to negotiate for a larger share of the profits that are currently taken by the owners of capital. How would them negotiating for a larger share of the profits be a good thing when they were already taking enough of a share of the profits to drive auto companies into bankruptcy? >You are assuming a world where the union has absolute power; The role of a union in a market system is to negotiate with the owners of capitol. If you have laws where only union members are allowed to work in auto factories, or that non-union members aren't allowed to work there, then the unions do have absolute power within those industries. >It's important to at least understand what your opponent is trying to say. I understand what they're trying to say. I'm just responding that paying auto workers more would not result in a net benefit to the middle class. If as the parent's scenario implies there is nowhere else for manufacturers to find labor (which implies no outsourcing), then for every increase in automobile prices that's brought about by increases in auto workers' wages, that means less resources available for car buyers to spend on other things. Unions in the American style cannot make the pie bigger, they can only divide it differently. More pie to unionised workers hence means less pie for everyone else (including the other workers who now can't find work as auto makers can afford fewer employees as they have to pay them more).

pacificmint 13y ago

> but they can't say as much because being seen as anti-union would hurt their image back in Germany. That's not about their image. The German steelworkers union, IG Metal, has several seats on the Volkswagen board and they made sure that Volkswagen wouldn't oppose the unionization. Actually, between the Union and the Workers Councils, they hold half of the board.

deleted 13y ago

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