10 ms·

Volkswagen's US workers vote against joining union

31 points by afterburner 13y ago

credo 13y ago
It is interesting (though not surprising) that Republicans threatened retaliation against Volkswagen if their workers unionized. (Volkswagen seemed to encourage their workers to form a union) In any case, this is a big win for the conservative movement/establishment in the US. If the workers had voted to unionize and if the (Republican led) government had penalized Volkwagen (as they threatened), it would have been interesting to see whether Volkswagen might moved to a less union-unfriendly state. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/12/business/automaker-gives-its-blessings-and-gop-its-warnings.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/12/business/automaker-gives-i... has some additional details.
- gcb0 13y ago
  VW did not encourage it. they only not threatened who did, in accordance to most work laws worldwide and most ethic values... which is rare in the US
EvanMiller 13y ago
This has been a knock-down drag-out fight and a lot of fun to watch. VW hates the UAW, but they can't say as much because being seen as anti-union would hurt their image back in Germany. Thanks to NRLB rules, VW can't make any statements about rewarding the workers for not unionizing, but that hasn't stopped Senator Corker from saying he heard it on good authority that VW would bring production of a second car to the Chattanooga plant if the workers rejected the UAW. That was a dirty/brilliant move on Corker's part, which both advanced his anti-union agenda and set the expectation that VW will add a second production line to its factory, which VW has been considering since the Passat hasn't been selling as well as they initially planned. Framing the unionization effort as a "works council" was ingenious marketing on UAW's part, but apparently wasn't enough to persuade the Tennessee good old boys to take the Rust Belt gambit. If you've ever heard stories about how GM & Co. run their factories you'll be amazed anything gets built at all.
- ChrisNorstrom 13y ago
  I want to ask you. Do you know anything about Detroit? Everything I read from people who've left there blame the unions for driving out the industry through ever increasing pay raises to the point where industry can't afford to stay. You seem to be more knowledgeable about the unions so I figured I'd ask you.
  - leobelle 13y ago
    I think there's definitely a localization problem with Unions. If Unions were everywhere and manufacturers had nowhere to run to, we'd probably have a really healthy middle class.
    - gcb0 13y ago
      you don't need globalization to kill the stillborn unions from the us. the same dysfunctional individualism that make so many workers opt out for the short term (or in this case the promise of middle term) extra profit also make the leaders shaft the ones that join for a little criminal profit. german workers have the cultural pragmatism on their favour.
    - logicchains 13y ago
      Translation: everyone who wasn't an auto worker would be slightly poorer. American auto unions fundamentally undermined any incentive auto manufacturers had to innovate. If a man with dynamite digs more holes than one with a shovel, is that man's increased productivity the result of his own effort? No. Auto unions claim pay raises proportional to increases in output per worker (productivity), regardless of the sources of these increases. This means manufacturers have no incentive to invest in better facilities or to innovate, as any profit from this innovation would be eaten up as wages.
      - lsc 13y ago
        >Translation: everyone who wasn't an auto worker would be slightly poorer. I think the theory is that if all workers were unionized, they would be able to negotiate for a larger share of the profits that are currently taken by the owners of capital. >Auto unions claim pay raises proportional to increases in output per worker (productivity), regardless of the sources of these increases. You are assuming a world where the union has absolute power; The role of a union in a market system is to negotiate with the owners of capitol. Agree or not, (and my personal beliefs are closer to yours than to the comment you are responding to.) it's important to at least understand what your opponent is trying to say.
rdl 13y ago
It's interesting reading about the labor unions in Germany. There, they actually seem like a useful abstraction for employers, at least in some industries. Not necessarily adversarial, and little of the crazy featherbedding. I guess it depends on whether an industry is growing in employment and importance (where any union-based programs to recruit/train/regulate employees can be helpful to everyone), vs. in declining industries (ie virtually every unionized sector in the US, in total employment in most sectors or in retail price (for services)).
- gaius 13y ago
  Yes, you can contrast this with UK unions. German unions are smart enough to find a win-win scenario and look to the long term, it's as if they see themselves as stewards of future generations. Where as UK unions can't wait to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, they are rapacious in their greed. I think some of this explains the reluctance of programmers to unionize; for historical reasons a lot of software culture is US/UK based, these are countries where unions have run amok with terrible consequences for their communities, no-one wants to repeat those mistakes.
  - masklinn 13y ago
    > German unions are smart enough to find a win-win scenario and look to the long term They don't exist in a void though, they can do that because they're empowered and treated as partners by companies, rather than treated as a plague.
    - gaius 13y ago
      It could have played out like that in the UK too, so why didn't it?
      - pgeorgi 13y ago
        Because the UK had Thatcher? /s Seriously I think there are reasons on all sides: The German government started early with the social welfare system in 1883, which set the tone. (even if it was only designed to keep the commies at bay, it still has a stabilizing effect on Germany today) This made the employers not go as bat shit crazy as they did in the UK and the US - overworking people straight into hospital means that you're paying their wage for not working. The UK built its industrialization on a constant stream of new workers. Which again let the unions run cooler compared to their UK/US counterparts since the situation wasn't _all_ that bad. The second and third step then formed a feedback loop (with some effects on Government, too), which was cooperative in Germany, and adversarial for the Anglo-Saxons. It looks to me as if at some point, both unions and employers in the US and the UK could claim with good reason that they're only defending themselves against the other party.
vishaldpatel 13y ago
Whats wrong with VW just having a work-council that's made up of workers from within the factory, without UAW?
- jussij 13y ago
  What they said on the PBS News Hour is that would be against the law. Basically the law states that company unions are illegal and the work-council without an external affiliated union would be a company union.
  - vishaldpatel 13y ago
    Ah, yes. The law attempts to prevent corruption.
  - rtpg 13y ago
    This bothered me to, so I tried looking up why this would be true: From wikipedia: >Section 8(a)(2) of the NLRA makes it illegal for an employer "to dominate or interfere with the formation or administration of any labor organization or contribute financial or other support to it." I guess the objective is to avoid "puppet" unions, though if the "formation" part was stricken from this, I feel like the problem would be solved (VW could form the union but have it be independent).
valtih1978 13y ago
The Empire was always good at smashing worker interests. But, car manufacturers have no future anyway. The party is over. > The vote had faced resistance from Republican politicians, who argued it would slow economic growth. The problem is that we consider growth and consumption of cars and households as "a fucking dandy" (c, George Carlin) drivers of your economy. They are not a solution. They are deseases of our environment, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qGM9ypR-UI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qGM9ypR-UI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPS1y81b1Bw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPS1y81b1Bw , including economy. www.youtube.com/results?search_query=exponential+growth+oil+postcarbon Your hoarse, Mr Oil, is over. You have finished him. Yet, you seem to with the continuation of the party. The manufacturers have no future. The sooner you understand this the higher is the chance that you will have one.
greatsuccess 13y ago
If US VW workers made the money they do in Europe, they would be begging to join the union.
- gcb0 13y ago
  you confuse cause and effect.
altero 13y ago
I refused to join union many times. They would charge me $80 each month and provide nothing back. As contractor untermench I would only sponsor permanent employees.
- nodata 13y ago
  $80 a MONTH? Are you crazy? You need some competition there.
  - altero 13y ago
    This was Ireland, not US.
    - nodata 13y ago
      You paid that much in Ireland? How??
      - altero 13y ago
        I refused to join, I was on temp contract so no value for me. This was semi private scientific institution. Money were usually used to send HR/union people to bullshit trainings on nice location. BTW there were 2 managers for every science bee.
joesmo 13y ago
Amazing how stupid people can be even when it comes to their self interest. Seems like the GOP depends on this fact for much of their success with the poor and working class.

31 points by afterburner 13y ago

credo 13y ago

It is interesting (though not surprising) that Republicans threatened retaliation against Volkswagen if their workers unionized. (Volkswagen seemed to encourage their workers to form a union) In any case, this is a big win for the conservative movement/establishment in the US. If the workers had voted to unionize and if the (Republican led) government had penalized Volkwagen (as they threatened), it would have been interesting to see whether Volkswagen might moved to a less union-unfriendly state. http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/12/business/automaker-gives-its-blessings-and-gop-its-warnings.html http://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/12/business/automaker-gives-i... has some additional details.

gcb0 13y ago
VW did not encourage it. they only not threatened who did, in accordance to most work laws worldwide and most ethic values... which is rare in the US

EvanMiller 13y ago

This has been a knock-down drag-out fight and a lot of fun to watch. VW hates the UAW, but they can't say as much because being seen as anti-union would hurt their image back in Germany. Thanks to NRLB rules, VW can't make any statements about rewarding the workers for not unionizing, but that hasn't stopped Senator Corker from saying he heard it on good authority that VW would bring production of a second car to the Chattanooga plant if the workers rejected the UAW. That was a dirty/brilliant move on Corker's part, which both advanced his anti-union agenda and set the expectation that VW will add a second production line to its factory, which VW has been considering since the Passat hasn't been selling as well as they initially planned. Framing the unionization effort as a "works council" was ingenious marketing on UAW's part, but apparently wasn't enough to persuade the Tennessee good old boys to take the Rust Belt gambit. If you've ever heard stories about how GM & Co. run their factories you'll be amazed anything gets built at all.

ChrisNorstrom 13y ago
I want to ask you. Do you know anything about Detroit? Everything I read from people who've left there blame the unions for driving out the industry through ever increasing pay raises to the point where industry can't afford to stay. You seem to be more knowledgeable about the unions so I figured I'd ask you.
- leobelle 13y ago
  I think there's definitely a localization problem with Unions. If Unions were everywhere and manufacturers had nowhere to run to, we'd probably have a really healthy middle class.
  - gcb0 13y ago
    you don't need globalization to kill the stillborn unions from the us. the same dysfunctional individualism that make so many workers opt out for the short term (or in this case the promise of middle term) extra profit also make the leaders shaft the ones that join for a little criminal profit. german workers have the cultural pragmatism on their favour.
  - logicchains 13y ago
    Translation: everyone who wasn't an auto worker would be slightly poorer. American auto unions fundamentally undermined any incentive auto manufacturers had to innovate. If a man with dynamite digs more holes than one with a shovel, is that man's increased productivity the result of his own effort? No. Auto unions claim pay raises proportional to increases in output per worker (productivity), regardless of the sources of these increases. This means manufacturers have no incentive to invest in better facilities or to innovate, as any profit from this innovation would be eaten up as wages.
    - lsc 13y ago
      >Translation: everyone who wasn't an auto worker would be slightly poorer. I think the theory is that if all workers were unionized, they would be able to negotiate for a larger share of the profits that are currently taken by the owners of capital. >Auto unions claim pay raises proportional to increases in output per worker (productivity), regardless of the sources of these increases. You are assuming a world where the union has absolute power; The role of a union in a market system is to negotiate with the owners of capitol. Agree or not, (and my personal beliefs are closer to yours than to the comment you are responding to.) it's important to at least understand what your opponent is trying to say.

rdl 13y ago

It's interesting reading about the labor unions in Germany. There, they actually seem like a useful abstraction for employers, at least in some industries. Not necessarily adversarial, and little of the crazy featherbedding. I guess it depends on whether an industry is growing in employment and importance (where any union-based programs to recruit/train/regulate employees can be helpful to everyone), vs. in declining industries (ie virtually every unionized sector in the US, in total employment in most sectors or in retail price (for services)).

gaius 13y ago
Yes, you can contrast this with UK unions. German unions are smart enough to find a win-win scenario and look to the long term, it's as if they see themselves as stewards of future generations. Where as UK unions can't wait to kill the goose that lays the golden eggs, they are rapacious in their greed. I think some of this explains the reluctance of programmers to unionize; for historical reasons a lot of software culture is US/UK based, these are countries where unions have run amok with terrible consequences for their communities, no-one wants to repeat those mistakes.
- masklinn 13y ago
  > German unions are smart enough to find a win-win scenario and look to the long term They don't exist in a void though, they can do that because they're empowered and treated as partners by companies, rather than treated as a plague.
  - gaius 13y ago
    It could have played out like that in the UK too, so why didn't it?
    - pgeorgi 13y ago
      Because the UK had Thatcher? /s Seriously I think there are reasons on all sides: The German government started early with the social welfare system in 1883, which set the tone. (even if it was only designed to keep the commies at bay, it still has a stabilizing effect on Germany today) This made the employers not go as bat shit crazy as they did in the UK and the US - overworking people straight into hospital means that you're paying their wage for not working. The UK built its industrialization on a constant stream of new workers. Which again let the unions run cooler compared to their UK/US counterparts since the situation wasn't _all_ that bad. The second and third step then formed a feedback loop (with some effects on Government, too), which was cooperative in Germany, and adversarial for the Anglo-Saxons. It looks to me as if at some point, both unions and employers in the US and the UK could claim with good reason that they're only defending themselves against the other party.

vishaldpatel 13y ago

Whats wrong with VW just having a work-council that's made up of workers from within the factory, without UAW?

jussij 13y ago
What they said on the PBS News Hour is that would be against the law. Basically the law states that company unions are illegal and the work-council without an external affiliated union would be a company union.
- vishaldpatel 13y ago
  Ah, yes. The law attempts to prevent corruption.
- rtpg 13y ago
  This bothered me to, so I tried looking up why this would be true: From wikipedia: >Section 8(a)(2) of the NLRA makes it illegal for an employer "to dominate or interfere with the formation or administration of any labor organization or contribute financial or other support to it." I guess the objective is to avoid "puppet" unions, though if the "formation" part was stricken from this, I feel like the problem would be solved (VW could form the union but have it be independent).

valtih1978 13y ago

The Empire was always good at smashing worker interests. But, car manufacturers have no future anyway. The party is over. > The vote had faced resistance from Republican politicians, who argued it would slow economic growth. The problem is that we consider growth and consumption of cars and households as "a fucking dandy" (c, George Carlin) drivers of your economy. They are not a solution. They are deseases of our environment, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qGM9ypR-UI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qGM9ypR-UI http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPS1y81b1Bw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rPS1y81b1Bw , including economy. www.youtube.com/results?search_query=exponential+growth+oil+postcarbon Your hoarse, Mr Oil, is over. You have finished him. Yet, you seem to with the continuation of the party. The manufacturers have no future. The sooner you understand this the higher is the chance that you will have one.

greatsuccess 13y ago

If US VW workers made the money they do in Europe, they would be begging to join the union.

gcb0 13y ago
you confuse cause and effect.

altero 13y ago

I refused to join union many times. They would charge me $80 each month and provide nothing back. As contractor untermench I would only sponsor permanent employees.

nodata 13y ago
$80 a MONTH? Are you crazy? You need some competition there.
- altero 13y ago
  This was Ireland, not US.
  - nodata 13y ago
    You paid that much in Ireland? How??
    - altero 13y ago
      I refused to join, I was on temp contract so no value for me. This was semi private scientific institution. Money were usually used to send HR/union people to bullshit trainings on nice location. BTW there were 2 managers for every science bee.

joesmo 13y ago

Amazing how stupid people can be even when it comes to their self interest. Seems like the GOP depends on this fact for much of their success with the poor and working class.