> Is there any evidence that humans ever weren't large enough to worry about common property? Well, yes, as long as you keep going back in the geological recor

> Is there any evidence that humans ever weren't large enough to worry about common property? Well, yes, as long as you keep going back in the geological record (I won't say historical record since written language would seem to have required a dense-enough population). > If humans are social creatures, then it seems to me that this view of history can't be right because humans have always formed governments as required by our social nature. Well even at the family unit level you mention, there would be government (by head-of-household, whoever that was). In areas with multiple families you'd likely have common property which would need it's own form of government (warlord, popular tribal chief, what-have-you). But that's getting back to my original argument. I think we might actually be in agreement; the key to me seems to be that the Hobbesian nightmare doesn't occur when a populace and its government are organically grown. There's no reason you'd see all-vs.-all in history simply because there was always some form of government. Hobbes's nightmare seems to come from the collapse of government among a mass of people, and its subsequent power vacuum, which results in subsequent in-fighting (or invasion from abroad). There are multiple examples of this in recorded history as well. > But bandits have almost always been a reaction to the formation (often by distinct government policies) of a destitute class. I don't think anyone would argue that destitution increases crime and violence against the weak. It's easier to have morals when you don't have to die of hunger due to your principles. Likewise I think your point about blood feuds is spot on, but then we need to recognize that it has become government (as you say, law and order by a different means). The idea that the "war of all vs. all" would be transient (until some form of stable governance sets up) is probably the thing which keeps Hobbes from being as much of a nightmare. But it also wouldn't really make those who live through the transient feel any better about it.