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Do you have any citations that mandatory charity work are beneficial for the psychological condition? Also are there data about negative or positive externaliti

by vdaniuk 13y ago

Do you have any citations that mandatory charity work are beneficial for the psychological condition? Also are there data about negative or positive externalities of forced charity work?

Havoc 13y ago
>Do you have any citations that mandatory charity work are beneficial for the psychological condition? You raise a valid point. At first I thought "don't be stupid...obviously its beneficial". Looking at that word "mandatory" in your question though I'm no longer confident in my initial instinct....
- ForHackernews 13y ago
  In our hypothetical scenario, it's not "mandatory"--it's freely available. If you already have some other highly paid job, great. If not, there's always the option of doing the volunteer work in exchange for the minimum income from the government. There would probably also need to be some kind of exemption for people with physical or mental disabilities.
  - vdaniuk 13y ago
    Exemptions and regulations add to the administrative overheads. Monitoring and enforcing quality of volunteer work is a large overhead, too. The efficiency of basic income lies in its extreme simplicity. However, the details of basic income-like schemes may be irrelevant. Basic income and its mutations are possible when most household products are basically done by robots. It is possible basic income will grow at 25-50% YoY rate and that growth indicator is only thing that matters.
    - ForHackernews 13y ago
      Like I said, I'm not really invested in basic income vs guaranteed minimum income. You could have a volunteer work "requirement" that was only enforced by social convention. If it was seen as dishonest/lazy to take the income without giving back to your community in any way, that would probably spur some social good without the inefficiency of a heavy-handed enforcement mechanism.
      - dllthomas 13y ago
        I think basic income with a social norm of "making sure you're doing some good for someone" is the way to go.
    - Havoc 13y ago
      > The efficiency of basic income lies in its extreme simplicity. Fair enough. I find it difficult to accept a system that doesn't grant a powerful advantage to a person with a significant physical/mental disability though. Equal basic income for all does not seem fair in that context. Also...this is more me thinking out loud than attacking anyone.
      - vdaniuk 13y ago
        I get what you are saying, but what about if we optimize not for equality but for happiness. Redistribution of value is a zero-sum game, while non-material value as happiness is not. I was thinking how equality movemen failed to produced social change in short time as world is extremely unbalanced. I think post-scarcity economy will bring new solutions and new social contracts.
        Havoc 13y ago
        >what about if we optimize not for equality but for happiness. Again, you make a valid point. Let me stop the debate right here though. We're venturing into philosophical territory here...the kind more suited to 5000 word essays than HN posts. One thing we can debate however: >post-scarcity economy I find this notion decidedly problematic. We've been optimizing the sht out of production for decades and yet the average family is battling to make ends meet more than ever. "post-scarcity economy"...I don't buy it...not even close.
        vdaniuk 13y ago
        > I don't buy it...not even close. I get where you are coming from and I agree that the current track record doesn't allow for such predictions. However, I am linking the advent of post-scarcity to the widespread adoption of some transhumanism values. Maybe that'll work. Or we'll be consumed by grey goo. The future is too bright to see it clearly. On the somewhat unrelated note my favorite flavor of transhumanism is abolitionism that aims to remove suffering as much as possible.
        13y ago
ForHackernews 13y ago
See my response to the other child comment, this wouldn't be a mandatory scheme. But in any case, compulsory community service as an alternative to jail time has shown promising results: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-10725163 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-10725163
- vdaniuk 13y ago
  In the context of basic income compulsory of community service the alternative is forcing nothing on the person, not jail time.

by vdaniuk 13y ago

Do you have any citations that mandatory charity work are beneficial for the psychological condition? Also are there data about negative or positive externalities of forced charity work?

Havoc 13y ago

>Do you have any citations that mandatory charity work are beneficial for the psychological condition? You raise a valid point. At first I thought "don't be stupid...obviously its beneficial". Looking at that word "mandatory" in your question though I'm no longer confident in my initial instinct....

ForHackernews 13y ago
In our hypothetical scenario, it's not "mandatory"--it's freely available. If you already have some other highly paid job, great. If not, there's always the option of doing the volunteer work in exchange for the minimum income from the government. There would probably also need to be some kind of exemption for people with physical or mental disabilities.
- vdaniuk 13y ago
  Exemptions and regulations add to the administrative overheads. Monitoring and enforcing quality of volunteer work is a large overhead, too. The efficiency of basic income lies in its extreme simplicity. However, the details of basic income-like schemes may be irrelevant. Basic income and its mutations are possible when most household products are basically done by robots. It is possible basic income will grow at 25-50% YoY rate and that growth indicator is only thing that matters.
  - ForHackernews 13y ago
    Like I said, I'm not really invested in basic income vs guaranteed minimum income. You could have a volunteer work "requirement" that was only enforced by social convention. If it was seen as dishonest/lazy to take the income without giving back to your community in any way, that would probably spur some social good without the inefficiency of a heavy-handed enforcement mechanism.
    - dllthomas 13y ago
      I think basic income with a social norm of "making sure you're doing some good for someone" is the way to go.
  - Havoc 13y ago
    > The efficiency of basic income lies in its extreme simplicity. Fair enough. I find it difficult to accept a system that doesn't grant a powerful advantage to a person with a significant physical/mental disability though. Equal basic income for all does not seem fair in that context. Also...this is more me thinking out loud than attacking anyone.
    - vdaniuk 13y ago
      I get what you are saying, but what about if we optimize not for equality but for happiness. Redistribution of value is a zero-sum game, while non-material value as happiness is not. I was thinking how equality movemen failed to produced social change in short time as world is extremely unbalanced. I think post-scarcity economy will bring new solutions and new social contracts.
      - Havoc 13y ago
        >what about if we optimize not for equality but for happiness. Again, you make a valid point. Let me stop the debate right here though. We're venturing into philosophical territory here...the kind more suited to 5000 word essays than HN posts. One thing we can debate however: >post-scarcity economy I find this notion decidedly problematic. We've been optimizing the sht out of production for decades and yet the average family is battling to make ends meet more than ever. "post-scarcity economy"...I don't buy it...not even close.
        vdaniuk 13y ago
        > I don't buy it...not even close. I get where you are coming from and I agree that the current track record doesn't allow for such predictions. However, I am linking the advent of post-scarcity to the widespread adoption of some transhumanism values. Maybe that'll work. Or we'll be consumed by grey goo. The future is too bright to see it clearly. On the somewhat unrelated note my favorite flavor of transhumanism is abolitionism that aims to remove suffering as much as possible.
        13y ago

ForHackernews 13y ago

See my response to the other child comment, this wouldn't be a mandatory scheme. But in any case, compulsory community service as an alternative to jail time has shown promising results: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-10725163 http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-10725163

vdaniuk 13y ago
In the context of basic income compulsory of community service the alternative is forcing nothing on the person, not jail time.