11 ms·

Someday we have to figure out this app-death thing. There has to be a better way. If anything, this highlights a problem with the model of SAAS in general: whe

Someday we have to figure out this app-death thing. There has to be a better way. If anything, this highlights a problem with the model of SAAS in general: whether it be 3 years out, 10 years out, or 25 years away, these companies and the tools we might begin to depend on are not reliably sustainable. Is there a better model? What if we all had our own private cloud servers, running apps that we purchased that communicated with each other independent of a central entity? What if they were as easy to set up as the current SaaS signup we know so well? What if it were even easier? Personally I would love a personally-curated library of tools, on which I could control the end-of-life story. But this also brings up many new problems. New and interesting problems.

msutherl 13y ago
Embrace creative destruction. Apps die and it gives new ones a chance to fill the space. Keeps the ecosystem responsive and gives everybody a chance to innovate. Want apps to stick around? Enjoy Excel, Photoshop, etc. :)
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 13y ago
  That may work for games, but it's just stupid for what is essentially infrastructure. Some creative destruction may well make sense there as well at times (instead of accumulating cruft indefinitely), but there are major costs associated with doing so, so an approach that has a high probability of requiring a complete rebuild every couple of years is just moronic.
- untog 13y ago
  Embrace the 'creative' destruction of all the documents I store with a cloud provider? Yeah, no thanks.
ForHackernews 13y ago
There is: Release a piece of software that runs locally. There's no reason document-organizing software needs to be in "the cloud". One major reason SaaS is so popular is people can't figure out how to write programs worth paying for. If you wrap it up in some vague notion of a "service", customers assume they're getting some kind of ongoing value.
- jweir 13y ago
  And give an open source license. It might be a pain to install, run and maintain, which is why you pay for the service. But, if the service dies you have a path forward if your life or business depends on it.
- sirmarksalot 13y ago
  There is a perfectly good reason why document-organizing software needs to be in "the cloud." We live in the cloud. I want access to my stuff from my desktop, my laptop, my phone, from work, from a coffee shop, everywhere. I want to be able to read a document, write a document, edit a document, share a document whenever I have the time to do so, and I want more software that does this, not less. The idea of personal clouds is compelling, if we can only make configuration easy, and figure out how to pay the application developers.
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 13y ago
    If anything, that might be a reason why you want the documents in the "cloud", but why would you want to have the software in the "cloud"? And, actually, the way the "cloud" was understood before the hype, your documents are "in the cloud" as soon as they are on a computer that is connected to the internet. I don't need a "cloud provider" or even a "personal cloud" in order to access the documents stored on my machine at home from my laptop, both are connected to the internet, that's all that is needed. That it might be possible to make all of that easier to use is still true, though.
    - chc 13y ago
      > If anything, that might be a reason why you want the documents in the "cloud", but why would you want to have the software in the "cloud"? Because otherwise you can't do anything with the documents except from the one computer that you put your $400 software on.
      - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 13y ago
        Is that a joke I'm not getting? If not, please explain.
ChuckMcM 13y ago
FWIW I think this is the killer issue of this particular point in time. So far the only idea I can see all the pieces for is a new kind of appliance which is your personal "cloud." This would be analagous to an air conditioner or refrigerator in your house, but built with massively open sort of infrastructure (much like existing appliances use standardized fittings and filters and what not). Then into this home 'cloud' a platform for hosting "apps" which you buy and install, and basically run forever until you de-install them or replace them with something better. A server appliance for the rest of the world as it were.
- pavlov 13y ago
  So instead of doing timeshare on a remote computer, people could have appliances that do computing and file storage directly in their homes. We could simply call these "personal computers", to emphasize the shift in control. Imagine how amazing it would be if there was a standard for processor architecture and a standard for operating system software, so that you could write software that runs on any such "P.C." appliance out there. (But if that standard fell into the hands of a corporation, there would certainly be potential for some scary monopoly abuse.)
  - chc 13y ago
    I sense sarcasm here, but there actually isn't a good solution for the situation you're talking about. PCs are absolutely not standardized and universally compatible (even ones without ties to a corporation), and none of the ones we have are a good substitute for a cloud service in many respects.
    - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 13y ago
      What exactly is not standardized about PCs that would matter for this kind of application?!
      - chc 13y ago
        What is "this kind of application"?
cjensen 13y ago
Doo was free. It's great in that it indexes and OCRs everything wherever it is located: you don't have to move the documents into the database like Evernote requires. Here's the problem: the only revenue source was people who want to store their docs in the cloud. Keep in mind, that would be ALL your documents. That's a tough sell for me.
cmer 13y ago
Ironically, classic "desktop" apps solve most of this. Even if Microsoft went out of business, Microsoft Word would still work.
- chc 13y ago
  Are you sure? I would have thought the inability to verify your license would put an expiration date on Word if Microsoft vanished in a puff of smoke.
  - mpyne 13y ago
    Grab the cracked version from the Pirate Bay then. Or use LibreOffice, Calligra, AbiWord, etc.
    - chc 13y ago
      On the topic of cracked versions: I thought we were working within the framework of the law. If not, it's true, we have a world of options such as "Hold the developer at gunpoint and force him to keep working on it." I'm not sure very many people would want their software infrastructure based on law-breaking, though. As for switching software: That puts us roughly in the same place we are when SaaS companies go under.
      - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 13y ago
        So, using a cracked version of a software that you have bought a license for but that the vendor does not allow you to use anymore anyway is roughly equivalent to holding a developer at gunpoint? And no, if(!) you still have a full copy of your data in an open format, that's a much better starting point for switching to different software.
      - mpyne 13y ago
        Or you could switch (legally) now and not have to worry about it in the future. Operations in general is about risk management, I won't tell you what to do, I'm just saying there actually are options.
chc 13y ago
The thing is, obsolescence is an issue even for desktop software. The company where I work recently went through a fairly painful upgrade process for some software we were using that was no longer supported. We could have kept using it, but it was becoming more and more troublesome as the software failed to keep up with the times. No matter what software you choose to use and no matter what model the company employs to provide the software, it's really important that the party behind the software is in it for the long haul, because otherwise you're going to have to deal with that. Basically, look at the business model for the company. Does it look like one that will be around in a few years? It's usually not that hard to tell (in particular, things being given away for free like Doo tend to be transient).

msutherl 13y ago

Embrace creative destruction. Apps die and it gives new ones a chance to fill the space. Keeps the ecosystem responsive and gives everybody a chance to innovate. Want apps to stick around? Enjoy Excel, Photoshop, etc. :)

zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 13y ago
That may work for games, but it's just stupid for what is essentially infrastructure. Some creative destruction may well make sense there as well at times (instead of accumulating cruft indefinitely), but there are major costs associated with doing so, so an approach that has a high probability of requiring a complete rebuild every couple of years is just moronic.
untog 13y ago
Embrace the 'creative' destruction of all the documents I store with a cloud provider? Yeah, no thanks.

ForHackernews 13y ago

There is: Release a piece of software that runs locally. There's no reason document-organizing software needs to be in "the cloud". One major reason SaaS is so popular is people can't figure out how to write programs worth paying for. If you wrap it up in some vague notion of a "service", customers assume they're getting some kind of ongoing value.

jweir 13y ago
And give an open source license. It might be a pain to install, run and maintain, which is why you pay for the service. But, if the service dies you have a path forward if your life or business depends on it.
sirmarksalot 13y ago
There is a perfectly good reason why document-organizing software needs to be in "the cloud." We live in the cloud. I want access to my stuff from my desktop, my laptop, my phone, from work, from a coffee shop, everywhere. I want to be able to read a document, write a document, edit a document, share a document whenever I have the time to do so, and I want more software that does this, not less. The idea of personal clouds is compelling, if we can only make configuration easy, and figure out how to pay the application developers.
- zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 13y ago
  If anything, that might be a reason why you want the documents in the "cloud", but why would you want to have the software in the "cloud"? And, actually, the way the "cloud" was understood before the hype, your documents are "in the cloud" as soon as they are on a computer that is connected to the internet. I don't need a "cloud provider" or even a "personal cloud" in order to access the documents stored on my machine at home from my laptop, both are connected to the internet, that's all that is needed. That it might be possible to make all of that easier to use is still true, though.
  - chc 13y ago
    > If anything, that might be a reason why you want the documents in the "cloud", but why would you want to have the software in the "cloud"? Because otherwise you can't do anything with the documents except from the one computer that you put your $400 software on.
    - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 13y ago
      Is that a joke I'm not getting? If not, please explain.

ChuckMcM 13y ago

FWIW I think this is the killer issue of this particular point in time. So far the only idea I can see all the pieces for is a new kind of appliance which is your personal "cloud." This would be analagous to an air conditioner or refrigerator in your house, but built with massively open sort of infrastructure (much like existing appliances use standardized fittings and filters and what not). Then into this home 'cloud' a platform for hosting "apps" which you buy and install, and basically run forever until you de-install them or replace them with something better. A server appliance for the rest of the world as it were.

pavlov 13y ago
So instead of doing timeshare on a remote computer, people could have appliances that do computing and file storage directly in their homes. We could simply call these "personal computers", to emphasize the shift in control. Imagine how amazing it would be if there was a standard for processor architecture and a standard for operating system software, so that you could write software that runs on any such "P.C." appliance out there. (But if that standard fell into the hands of a corporation, there would certainly be potential for some scary monopoly abuse.)
- chc 13y ago
  I sense sarcasm here, but there actually isn't a good solution for the situation you're talking about. PCs are absolutely not standardized and universally compatible (even ones without ties to a corporation), and none of the ones we have are a good substitute for a cloud service in many respects.
  - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 13y ago
    What exactly is not standardized about PCs that would matter for this kind of application?!
    - chc 13y ago
      What is "this kind of application"?

cjensen 13y ago

Doo was free. It's great in that it indexes and OCRs everything wherever it is located: you don't have to move the documents into the database like Evernote requires. Here's the problem: the only revenue source was people who want to store their docs in the cloud. Keep in mind, that would be ALL your documents. That's a tough sell for me.

cmer 13y ago

Ironically, classic "desktop" apps solve most of this. Even if Microsoft went out of business, Microsoft Word would still work.

chc 13y ago
Are you sure? I would have thought the inability to verify your license would put an expiration date on Word if Microsoft vanished in a puff of smoke.
- mpyne 13y ago
  Grab the cracked version from the Pirate Bay then. Or use LibreOffice, Calligra, AbiWord, etc.
  - chc 13y ago
    On the topic of cracked versions: I thought we were working within the framework of the law. If not, it's true, we have a world of options such as "Hold the developer at gunpoint and force him to keep working on it." I'm not sure very many people would want their software infrastructure based on law-breaking, though. As for switching software: That puts us roughly in the same place we are when SaaS companies go under.
    - zAy0LfpBZLC8mAC 13y ago
      So, using a cracked version of a software that you have bought a license for but that the vendor does not allow you to use anymore anyway is roughly equivalent to holding a developer at gunpoint? And no, if(!) you still have a full copy of your data in an open format, that's a much better starting point for switching to different software.
    - mpyne 13y ago
      Or you could switch (legally) now and not have to worry about it in the future. Operations in general is about risk management, I won't tell you what to do, I'm just saying there actually are options.

chc 13y ago

The thing is, obsolescence is an issue even for desktop software. The company where I work recently went through a fairly painful upgrade process for some software we were using that was no longer supported. We could have kept using it, but it was becoming more and more troublesome as the software failed to keep up with the times. No matter what software you choose to use and no matter what model the company employs to provide the software, it's really important that the party behind the software is in it for the long haul, because otherwise you're going to have to deal with that. Basically, look at the business model for the company. Does it look like one that will be around in a few years? It's usually not that hard to tell (in particular, things being given away for free like Doo tend to be transient).