4 ms·

Seems like it would chip away at Snowden's "whistleblower" claim if he was actively trying to subvert the NSA's compartmentation scheme to access documents he w

by minimax 13y ago

Seems like it would chip away at Snowden's "whistleblower" claim if he was actively trying to subvert the NSA's compartmentation scheme to access documents he wasn't cleared for.

Nrsolis 13y ago
THIS. Like I've said in other comments on Snowden: he had an agenda. This wasn't just simply a case of a guy who was involved in something he couldn't stomach any longer; he went in with the intention of gaining access to materials he didn't have a right to see. He took on the persona of a mole and use the access he did have to gain the trust of people via subterfuge. THAT is how he got these documents. If Snowden had a foreign handler, then he would be called a "spy." The jury is still out on whether or not that was the case. I'm not taking anything away from the disclosures that were made about NSA overreach, but seriously, do we hate our government so much that we are willing to cheer when another government subverts it?
- ceejayoz 13y ago
  If you think there's any evidence of Snowden being run as an asset of a foreign government, you've fallen victim to baseless whisper campaigns by a few Congressmen. There is zero evidence of this. If there were any, the administration would be trumpeting it far and wide.
  - minimax 13y ago
    These nations, including Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador have my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless. By refusing to compromise their principles in the face of intimidation, they have earned the respect of the world. Edward Snowden, July 2013 That is an awfully nice thing to say about the Russian establishment. It's also nice that Snowden, a guy who seems to be pretty forthcoming with his opinions, has not made a single comment about any of the well documented cases of civil rights abuses in Russia.
    - dale386 13y ago
      I doubt that he's happy about having to seek refuge in Russia.
    - jeffdavis 13y ago
      To be fair, he was in a precarious position at the time. Did he make statements like that before the whole thing started?
    - ceejayoz 13y ago
      > Edward Snowden, July 2013 That's hardly evidence those governments are running him as an intelligence asset. > It's also nice that Snowden, a guy who seems to be pretty forthcoming with his opinions, has not made a single comment about any of the well documented cases of civil rights abuses in Russia. There's something to be said for not wanting to get kicked out of the one country to grant asylum. Again, hardly makes him a spy for them.
      - minimax 13y ago
        Point is he took classified intelligence documents to China, then Russia. He never says anything bad about Russian political leaders and he occasionally says very good things about Russian political leaders. His disclosures also frequently seem to cause strife among NATO allies. What you said is that if you think Snowden is a foreign agent, then "you've fallen victim to baseless whisper campaigns." What I'm saying is that there is a very suspicious (though not conclusive) pattern in his behavior. You don't need any "whisper campaigns" to see it. There is plenty of room to doubt his motivations.
        unclebucknasty 13y ago
        What exactly are you saying his "motivations" were? It actually makes far less sense that Snowden would publicly praise the countries for which he is secretly spying. It makes more sense that he was making those comments as a matter of expediency (he was seeking asylum, after all). And, say what you will, but the man is not without intelligence. The irony and impact of making those statements about Russia as a U.S. citizen in that situation was not lost on him. But all of this a sideshow and a red herring. So, let's just say Snowden was a spy. Let's also say he was a member of al Qaeda. Now, about those revelations regarding our government's activities...
  - Nrsolis 13y ago
    Dude, I'm lot listening to any congressmen at all. I'm going with my gut on this one. I've got some pretty well-known friends who have written volumes about the NSA. They are happy to see these disclosures. I'm happy to see our discussion finally informed with some actual examples of over-reach. That said, I'm not going to crown Snowden a hero. I don't believe he's innocent by a mile. His intentions were far from honorable and more akin to self-aggrandizement than honest debate about the role of government in our communications privacy.
    - canvia 13y ago
      Watch this interview and you might reevaluate your statement on whether or not his intentions were honorable: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f93_1390833151 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f93_1390833151
- mindslight 13y ago
  You're exactly right. Snowden was a spy, working for the citizens of the United States to infiltrate the extra-constitutional USG.
- factorizer 13y ago
  > but seriously, do we hate our government so much that we are willing to cheer when another government subverts it? Probably not, but your government hates YOU so much that they are willing to spy on you on every occasion.
  - Nrsolis 13y ago
    Uh...no. To borrow your logic, show me a solid example of the USG using this vast surveillance network to oppress civil rights en masse. The USG has been able to suppress individual civil rights without any of this stuff. All of the evidence thus far has indicated that they have only ever used this capability to target foreign bad actors.
- mgleason_3 13y ago
  You guys have drunk the Kool-aid. Make it about snowmen. Forget that the program has stopped ZERO attacks. Forget that the opportunity for abuse is off the charts. Forget that our government is completely off the rails on this issue.
ceejayoz 13y ago
Releasing document he was cleared for violates the NSA's compartmentalization scheme. I don't see how that affects his whistleblower status one bit.
- Nrsolis 13y ago
  It's the attempting (and succeeding) to gain access to other documents outside his compartment that undermines his claims.
  - ceejayoz 13y ago
    That's a completely unsupported assertion. Why does that undermine his claim? Why does seeking further evidence of wrongdoing mean he's not a whistleblower?
    - Nrsolis 13y ago
      Seeking further evidence of wrongdoing? LOL. At what point did he morph from whistleblower to investigative journalist? Even an investigative journalist isn't allowed to do what he did to gather information. Can you imagine a world where we allowed the Geraldos of the world to use subterfuge and moles to go out and SEEK classified information using the same methods that the Soviets or Chinese would?
      - ceejayoz 13y ago
        > Can you imagine a world where we allowed the Geraldos of the world to use subterfuge and moles to go out and SEEK classified information using the same methods that the Soviets or Chinese would? Media moles are called leakers, and they're all over the place. Many are highly placed officials purposefully leaking to control the narrative. Interestingly, leaks that benefit the government's positions seem to receive less investigatory attention from the FBI et al.
        Nrsolis 13y ago
at-fates-hands 13y ago
I think the fact he was contacting journalists in December about information he had yet to take (he said he started taking documents in April) shows he had a single purpose to take documents illegally to expose what the NSA was doing. That's borderline spying if you ask me. It's not like he got hired and after several months realizes something wasn't right. He had a specific purpose in mind before even getting there. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/edward-snowden-after-months-of-nsa-revelations-says-his-missions-accomplished/2013/12/23/49fc36de-6c1c-11e3-a523-fe73f0ff6b8d_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/edward... "By last December, Snowden was contacting reporters, although he had not yet passed along any classified information. He continued to give his colleagues the “front-page test,” he said, until April." "Asked about those conversations, NSA spokeswoman Vanee Vines sent a prepared statement to The Post: “After extensive investigation, including interviews with his former NSA supervisors and co-workers, we have not found any evidence to support Mr. Snowden’s contention that he brought these matters to anyone’s attention." I will always contend what he did was reckless and subverted the job the intelligence community was doing at the time. Unless you were living under a rock, you already knew the NSA was getting out of control. Wired's article in Feb of 2013 highlighted the new NSA facility and its growing capabilities: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/
- mindslight 13y ago
  > Unless you were living under a rock, you already knew the NSA was getting out of control Yes, definitely. If your threat model hasn't included global passive adversaries, at least since Mark Klein, then you're woefully naive and out of touch. But what Snowden did is get people to care by revealing tangible details in a way that simply saying "everything is tapped" does not. Things certainly won't change overnight, and it may even take a few more like him to keep us on track to a secure Internet. But the fact that he got all of us talking, and we're still talking, is pretty remarkable. And as long as he didn't physically hurt anyone, I can't see how anything could possibly be wrong with his methods. Remember, we're talking about unauthorized computer access versus institutionalized programs that are illegal under USG's charter, and of a type that would at least be publicly approved and transparent in any free society.

by minimax 13y ago

Seems like it would chip away at Snowden's "whistleblower" claim if he was actively trying to subvert the NSA's compartmentation scheme to access documents he wasn't cleared for.

Nrsolis 13y ago

THIS. Like I've said in other comments on Snowden: he had an agenda. This wasn't just simply a case of a guy who was involved in something he couldn't stomach any longer; he went in with the intention of gaining access to materials he didn't have a right to see. He took on the persona of a mole and use the access he did have to gain the trust of people via subterfuge. THAT is how he got these documents. If Snowden had a foreign handler, then he would be called a "spy." The jury is still out on whether or not that was the case. I'm not taking anything away from the disclosures that were made about NSA overreach, but seriously, do we hate our government so much that we are willing to cheer when another government subverts it?

ceejayoz 13y ago
If you think there's any evidence of Snowden being run as an asset of a foreign government, you've fallen victim to baseless whisper campaigns by a few Congressmen. There is zero evidence of this. If there were any, the administration would be trumpeting it far and wide.
- minimax 13y ago
  These nations, including Russia, Venezuela, Bolivia, Nicaragua, and Ecuador have my gratitude and respect for being the first to stand against human rights violations carried out by the powerful rather than the powerless. By refusing to compromise their principles in the face of intimidation, they have earned the respect of the world. Edward Snowden, July 2013 That is an awfully nice thing to say about the Russian establishment. It's also nice that Snowden, a guy who seems to be pretty forthcoming with his opinions, has not made a single comment about any of the well documented cases of civil rights abuses in Russia.
  - dale386 13y ago
    I doubt that he's happy about having to seek refuge in Russia.
  - jeffdavis 13y ago
    To be fair, he was in a precarious position at the time. Did he make statements like that before the whole thing started?
  - ceejayoz 13y ago
    > Edward Snowden, July 2013 That's hardly evidence those governments are running him as an intelligence asset. > It's also nice that Snowden, a guy who seems to be pretty forthcoming with his opinions, has not made a single comment about any of the well documented cases of civil rights abuses in Russia. There's something to be said for not wanting to get kicked out of the one country to grant asylum. Again, hardly makes him a spy for them.
    - minimax 13y ago
      Point is he took classified intelligence documents to China, then Russia. He never says anything bad about Russian political leaders and he occasionally says very good things about Russian political leaders. His disclosures also frequently seem to cause strife among NATO allies. What you said is that if you think Snowden is a foreign agent, then "you've fallen victim to baseless whisper campaigns." What I'm saying is that there is a very suspicious (though not conclusive) pattern in his behavior. You don't need any "whisper campaigns" to see it. There is plenty of room to doubt his motivations.
      - unclebucknasty 13y ago
        What exactly are you saying his "motivations" were? It actually makes far less sense that Snowden would publicly praise the countries for which he is secretly spying. It makes more sense that he was making those comments as a matter of expediency (he was seeking asylum, after all). And, say what you will, but the man is not without intelligence. The irony and impact of making those statements about Russia as a U.S. citizen in that situation was not lost on him. But all of this a sideshow and a red herring. So, let's just say Snowden was a spy. Let's also say he was a member of al Qaeda. Now, about those revelations regarding our government's activities...
- Nrsolis 13y ago
  Dude, I'm lot listening to any congressmen at all. I'm going with my gut on this one. I've got some pretty well-known friends who have written volumes about the NSA. They are happy to see these disclosures. I'm happy to see our discussion finally informed with some actual examples of over-reach. That said, I'm not going to crown Snowden a hero. I don't believe he's innocent by a mile. His intentions were far from honorable and more akin to self-aggrandizement than honest debate about the role of government in our communications privacy.
  - canvia 13y ago
    Watch this interview and you might reevaluate your statement on whether or not his intentions were honorable: http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f93_1390833151 http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=f93_1390833151
mindslight 13y ago
You're exactly right. Snowden was a spy, working for the citizens of the United States to infiltrate the extra-constitutional USG.
factorizer 13y ago
> but seriously, do we hate our government so much that we are willing to cheer when another government subverts it? Probably not, but your government hates YOU so much that they are willing to spy on you on every occasion.
- Nrsolis 13y ago
  Uh...no. To borrow your logic, show me a solid example of the USG using this vast surveillance network to oppress civil rights en masse. The USG has been able to suppress individual civil rights without any of this stuff. All of the evidence thus far has indicated that they have only ever used this capability to target foreign bad actors.
mgleason_3 13y ago
You guys have drunk the Kool-aid. Make it about snowmen. Forget that the program has stopped ZERO attacks. Forget that the opportunity for abuse is off the charts. Forget that our government is completely off the rails on this issue.

ceejayoz 13y ago

Releasing document he was cleared for violates the NSA's compartmentalization scheme. I don't see how that affects his whistleblower status one bit.

Nrsolis 13y ago
It's the attempting (and succeeding) to gain access to other documents outside his compartment that undermines his claims.
- ceejayoz 13y ago
  That's a completely unsupported assertion. Why does that undermine his claim? Why does seeking further evidence of wrongdoing mean he's not a whistleblower?
  - Nrsolis 13y ago
    Seeking further evidence of wrongdoing? LOL. At what point did he morph from whistleblower to investigative journalist? Even an investigative journalist isn't allowed to do what he did to gather information. Can you imagine a world where we allowed the Geraldos of the world to use subterfuge and moles to go out and SEEK classified information using the same methods that the Soviets or Chinese would?
    - ceejayoz 13y ago
      > Can you imagine a world where we allowed the Geraldos of the world to use subterfuge and moles to go out and SEEK classified information using the same methods that the Soviets or Chinese would? Media moles are called leakers, and they're all over the place. Many are highly placed officials purposefully leaking to control the narrative. Interestingly, leaks that benefit the government's positions seem to receive less investigatory attention from the FBI et al.
      - Nrsolis 13y ago

at-fates-hands 13y ago

I think the fact he was contacting journalists in December about information he had yet to take (he said he started taking documents in April) shows he had a single purpose to take documents illegally to expose what the NSA was doing. That's borderline spying if you ask me. It's not like he got hired and after several months realizes something wasn't right. He had a specific purpose in mind before even getting there. http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/edward-snowden-after-months-of-nsa-revelations-says-his-missions-accomplished/2013/12/23/49fc36de-6c1c-11e3-a523-fe73f0ff6b8d_story.html http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/national-security/edward... "By last December, Snowden was contacting reporters, although he had not yet passed along any classified information. He continued to give his colleagues the “front-page test,” he said, until April." "Asked about those conversations, NSA spokeswoman Vanee Vines sent a prepared statement to The Post: “After extensive investigation, including interviews with his former NSA supervisors and co-workers, we have not found any evidence to support Mr. Snowden’s contention that he brought these matters to anyone’s attention." I will always contend what he did was reckless and subverted the job the intelligence community was doing at the time. Unless you were living under a rock, you already knew the NSA was getting out of control. Wired's article in Feb of 2013 highlighted the new NSA facility and its growing capabilities: http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/ http://www.wired.com/threatlevel/2012/03/ff_nsadatacenter/

mindslight 13y ago
> Unless you were living under a rock, you already knew the NSA was getting out of control Yes, definitely. If your threat model hasn't included global passive adversaries, at least since Mark Klein, then you're woefully naive and out of touch. But what Snowden did is get people to care by revealing tangible details in a way that simply saying "everything is tapped" does not. Things certainly won't change overnight, and it may even take a few more like him to keep us on track to a secure Internet. But the fact that he got all of us talking, and we're still talking, is pretty remarkable. And as long as he didn't physically hurt anyone, I can't see how anything could possibly be wrong with his methods. Remember, we're talking about unauthorized computer access versus institutionalized programs that are illegal under USG's charter, and of a type that would at least be publicly approved and transparent in any free society.