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Graciously?

Flimm 13y ago
What's not gracious about that post? Losing graciously doesn't mean giving up without a fight, it means once you've lost, you take it well.
- ronaldx 13y ago
  I actually found it somewhat less than gracious. I read it to say that the wrong decision has been made, but accepted - an attempt to gain political points for the next round. If you have to say you're being gracious, you're probably not.
  - sspiff 13y ago
    It's clear that he thought Upstart was a better choice. His opinion hasn't changed, but he accepts that the majority of people who voted on this thought differently, and accept their decision. If you're convinced something is good/better, and you've argued that way for months, do you change your mind about all that when a committee or manager decides to go the other direction anyway?
  - doe88 13y ago
    > I read it to say that the wrong decision has been made, but accepted Sorry I don't read it your way, he seems to recognize that both systems would make an excellent choice: "From my perspective the fact that good people were clearly split suggests that either option would work perfectly well."
  - dspillett 13y ago
    Being gracious in this sort of instance doesn't necessitate admitting you were wrong.
    - ronaldx 13y ago
      I graciously admit that is correct, but not my objection. If you make a big deal about being gracious, that's the opposite of gracious.
      - pessimizer 13y ago
        To certain values of 'gracious.' I think part of graciousness as a winner is not to ask the loser to humiliate themselves for you. If he didn't think that Upstart was a better choice yet still argued for it, that would mean that he had been wasting all of our time.
      - vacri 13y ago
        You're confusing grace with humility. There's no problem with people referring to their graciousness, as long as they remain courteous while doing so. Anyway, 'big deal about being gracious'? Your second sentence contains more instances of the word than Shuttleworth's entire missive. The title mentions grace; the text says "we ran hard, we lost, we'll go with our upstream distro on this one, thanks everyone". The article is essentially a wake for Upstart, a near-10-year project initiated and championed by Canonical, and Shuttleworth is thanking everyone for their past work and work yet to come. Ironically, you're being very ungracious here.
  - tragic 13y ago
    Er... From my perspective the fact that good people were clearly split suggests that either option would work perfectly well. I trust the new stewards of pid 1 will take that responsibility as seriously as the Upstart team has done, and be as pleasant to work with. And… onward. Looks pretty gracious to me. I'd guess that, given Canonical/Ubuntu has struck out on its own in various other respects (and the level of controversy that generates on forums like this one), there is a need to make clear to the broader community that they aren't doing that on this particular issue. (Speaking as a naive desktop ubuntu user who wouldn't know systemd from upstart until they blow up in my face. Which, AFAICT, neither ever has.)
  - dfc 13y ago
    > If you have to say you're being gracious, you're probably not. This is the little brother of "You know I am not racist, but..."
rdtsc 13y ago
> Graciously? Question mark much without explaining anything? You were too lazy to post more information or what exactly you thought was not gracious about it.
cwyers 13y ago
It seems very gracious to me. But if you're not convinced, compare it to Ian Jackson, who is seriously pushing for GNOME to be removed from Debian if it has dependencies on systemd: https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00485.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00485.html
- cwyers 13y ago
  Actually, now that I think about it, this announcement has rather serious implications for the current debate in Debian. Several members of the Technical Committee are proceeding under the assumption that the Upstart developers will continue to provide logind without systemd. If Ubuntu is moving to systemd, that work is a dead-end, and Debian is going to have to take over maintenance of that work if they want to use it to support multiple init systems.
  - fdr_cs 13y ago
    The decision was already made, unless they can approve _and_ win a GR for overriding it (and I don't think they would win).
    - cwyers 13y ago
      The decision to make systemd the default in jessie has been made. The TC is still debating whether or not packages will be able to declare systemd as a dependency.
  - arnehormann 13y ago
    They will continue to provide it. Part of what he wrote: > We’ll certainly complete work to make the new logind work without systemd as pid 1.
- pekk 13y ago
  I don't think that is a fair reading of that email. The remark at the bottom about preserving choice is in line with what Jackson has said before.

Graciously?

Flimm 13y ago

What's not gracious about that post? Losing graciously doesn't mean giving up without a fight, it means once you've lost, you take it well.

ronaldx 13y ago
I actually found it somewhat less than gracious. I read it to say that the wrong decision has been made, but accepted - an attempt to gain political points for the next round. If you have to say you're being gracious, you're probably not.
- sspiff 13y ago
  It's clear that he thought Upstart was a better choice. His opinion hasn't changed, but he accepts that the majority of people who voted on this thought differently, and accept their decision. If you're convinced something is good/better, and you've argued that way for months, do you change your mind about all that when a committee or manager decides to go the other direction anyway?
- doe88 13y ago
  > I read it to say that the wrong decision has been made, but accepted Sorry I don't read it your way, he seems to recognize that both systems would make an excellent choice: "From my perspective the fact that good people were clearly split suggests that either option would work perfectly well."
- dspillett 13y ago
  Being gracious in this sort of instance doesn't necessitate admitting you were wrong.
  - ronaldx 13y ago
    I graciously admit that is correct, but not my objection. If you make a big deal about being gracious, that's the opposite of gracious.
    - pessimizer 13y ago
      To certain values of 'gracious.' I think part of graciousness as a winner is not to ask the loser to humiliate themselves for you. If he didn't think that Upstart was a better choice yet still argued for it, that would mean that he had been wasting all of our time.
    - vacri 13y ago
      You're confusing grace with humility. There's no problem with people referring to their graciousness, as long as they remain courteous while doing so. Anyway, 'big deal about being gracious'? Your second sentence contains more instances of the word than Shuttleworth's entire missive. The title mentions grace; the text says "we ran hard, we lost, we'll go with our upstream distro on this one, thanks everyone". The article is essentially a wake for Upstart, a near-10-year project initiated and championed by Canonical, and Shuttleworth is thanking everyone for their past work and work yet to come. Ironically, you're being very ungracious here.
- tragic 13y ago
  Er... From my perspective the fact that good people were clearly split suggests that either option would work perfectly well. I trust the new stewards of pid 1 will take that responsibility as seriously as the Upstart team has done, and be as pleasant to work with. And… onward. Looks pretty gracious to me. I'd guess that, given Canonical/Ubuntu has struck out on its own in various other respects (and the level of controversy that generates on forums like this one), there is a need to make clear to the broader community that they aren't doing that on this particular issue. (Speaking as a naive desktop ubuntu user who wouldn't know systemd from upstart until they blow up in my face. Which, AFAICT, neither ever has.)
- dfc 13y ago
  > If you have to say you're being gracious, you're probably not. This is the little brother of "You know I am not racist, but..."

rdtsc 13y ago

> Graciously? Question mark much without explaining anything? You were too lazy to post more information or what exactly you thought was not gracious about it.

cwyers 13y ago

It seems very gracious to me. But if you're not convinced, compare it to Ian Jackson, who is seriously pushing for GNOME to be removed from Debian if it has dependencies on systemd: https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00485.html https://lists.debian.org/debian-ctte/2014/02/msg00485.html

cwyers 13y ago
Actually, now that I think about it, this announcement has rather serious implications for the current debate in Debian. Several members of the Technical Committee are proceeding under the assumption that the Upstart developers will continue to provide logind without systemd. If Ubuntu is moving to systemd, that work is a dead-end, and Debian is going to have to take over maintenance of that work if they want to use it to support multiple init systems.
- fdr_cs 13y ago
  The decision was already made, unless they can approve _and_ win a GR for overriding it (and I don't think they would win).
  - cwyers 13y ago
    The decision to make systemd the default in jessie has been made. The TC is still debating whether or not packages will be able to declare systemd as a dependency.
- arnehormann 13y ago
  They will continue to provide it. Part of what he wrote: > We’ll certainly complete work to make the new logind work without systemd as pid 1.
pekk 13y ago
I don't think that is a fair reading of that email. The remark at the bottom about preserving choice is in line with what Jackson has said before.