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I think this is a useless exercise. The economics of Star Trek won't be coherent, because it was pieced together through multiple series and some wishful think

I think this is a useless exercise. The economics of Star Trek won't be coherent, because it was pieced together through multiple series and some wishful thinking while retaining certain properties needed for the universe to be interesting. You can't have a TV show about drone ships flying around and beaming back exploration data via subspace. Without Star Trek replicators in the foreseeable future, all the 3d printing and robots in the world will not give us unlimited amounts of basic materials needed. Concrete and glass might be virtually unlimited, but certain metals are definitely not. If those resource constraints lead to energy constraints, we'll have problems getting to any sort of proto-post-scarcity stage at current standards of living. AI might solve the problem, but the consequences of AI are unpredictable (singularity). A few books on the subject worth mentioning, but not mentioned in the essay: Doctorow - Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom (fiction, set in a speculative world where the economic system is based on units of social status called whuffies; everyone is born with some, if I recall right (nope, apparently I was wrong, it's not zero-sum), and from there it's a free market). Rifkin - The End of Work (nonfiction, takes a look at how society might function as jobs gradually disappear due to technology). Iain Banks's Culture universe is mentioned in the further reading section, but it's completely post-scarcity on planet and orbital scales, with AIs running everything. The aforementioned books are much closer to home.

hitchhiker999 13y ago
I do not prefer your 'harsh reality' - but good luck to you! I choose something else.
InclinedPlane 13y ago
> Concrete and glass might be virtually unlimited, but certain metals are definitely not. Automated asteroid mining basically takes care of that. Even the largest asteroids can be easily excavated right down to the core, and many of them contain a wide abundance of many metals, basically everything from Lithium to Copper to Nickel to Platinum or Iridium. With low gravity and 24/7 in situ solar power any reasonable separation technology can just be let loose and given time to work. Near Earth orbit there's more than 10 gigajoules of energy available per year per square meter from solar power, and that includes factoring in the efficiency of conversion.
- bdunbar 13y ago
  Not to mention that (I recall reading a long time ago) a typical asteroid contains as much iron ore as is present in the Iron Range. And there are a whole _lot_ of typical asteroids. I'm a big fan of the High Frontier. We just gotta get out of earth's gravity well cheaply and easily.
jdlshore 13y ago
Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom is a fascinating take on a post-scarcity economy. As I remember it, though, whuffies were not a zero-sum game to be traded like currency; they were more like followers on Twitter or likes on Facebook. Sort of institutionalized Klout [1]. [1] https://xkcd.com/1057/ https://xkcd.com/1057/
Blahah 13y ago
Another interesting SciFi exploration of economics is the Unincorporated Man (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4025200-the-unincorporated-man https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4025200-the-unincorporat...). Everyone is incorporated at birth, and trades shares in themselves (paying dividends once they are earning) to advance in life. People who don't have majority of themselves can't make their own decisions.
- dkuntz2 13y ago
  I thought that the concept was interesting, but their implementation was really boring and lackluster. It's been a while since I read it, but I felt that they didn't explore the implications of everyone's incorporated or how we got to that state as much as they probably should have. I couldn't even finish the second book because it didn't even have the interesting bits about people being incorporated, it was just a poorly written sci-fi war novel.
  - Blahah 13y ago
    Agree on all points. The second book was just god awful.
- ggreer 13y ago
  I liked the idea, but didn't enjoy the book. It was frustrating to see concepts only partially explored. For example: Apparently nobody in the civilization thought of using non-voting shares.
rasz_pl 13y ago
"Limes inferior" by Janusz Zajdel (1982) is also very interesting. Sci-fi in a post scarcity world where stupid are provided for, and smart are forced to work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_inferior http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_inferior Author came up with Identity theft, spoofing, NFC, all while living in communist state in the eighties.
yozhik 13y ago
I've been playing with the idea of a 'karma economy': everyone starts with 1.0 karma. If someone uses a service or product you made, your karma increases by c * (user's karma), where c is some coefficient. Karma also decays over time, but never drops below 1.0. Creators of expensive (scarce) items could hold onto those items until someone with high karma wants one, thus maximizing their own karma gain. I'm no an economist, so I have no idea if something like this would work, but it's a lot of fun to think about. Is this similar to eh whuffies from Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom?
- TheCoelacanth 13y ago
  That sounds very similar, though I believe that giving someone whuffie is a voluntary action that you do when you like a service/product/etc that you got from them rather than being automatic and you can also decrease their whuffie if they do something you don't like.
markc 13y ago
James P. Hogan's "Voyage from Yesteryear" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyage_from_Yesteryear http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyage_from_Yesteryear is another SciFi work where a post-scarcity economy figures prominently, including some funny scenes with new arrivals who take a while to adjust. (Hoarding behavior for a while, then they bring all the stuff back when they are comfortable with it). I have experienced this myself in small measure when I took a job where all the snacks and beverages were free.
Justen 13y ago
Tagging this chain to pick one of those books later.

hitchhiker999 13y ago

I do not prefer your 'harsh reality' - but good luck to you! I choose something else.

InclinedPlane 13y ago

> Concrete and glass might be virtually unlimited, but certain metals are definitely not. Automated asteroid mining basically takes care of that. Even the largest asteroids can be easily excavated right down to the core, and many of them contain a wide abundance of many metals, basically everything from Lithium to Copper to Nickel to Platinum or Iridium. With low gravity and 24/7 in situ solar power any reasonable separation technology can just be let loose and given time to work. Near Earth orbit there's more than 10 gigajoules of energy available per year per square meter from solar power, and that includes factoring in the efficiency of conversion.

bdunbar 13y ago
Not to mention that (I recall reading a long time ago) a typical asteroid contains as much iron ore as is present in the Iron Range. And there are a whole _lot_ of typical asteroids. I'm a big fan of the High Frontier. We just gotta get out of earth's gravity well cheaply and easily.

jdlshore 13y ago

Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom is a fascinating take on a post-scarcity economy. As I remember it, though, whuffies were not a zero-sum game to be traded like currency; they were more like followers on Twitter or likes on Facebook. Sort of institutionalized Klout [1]. [1] https://xkcd.com/1057/ https://xkcd.com/1057/

Blahah 13y ago

Another interesting SciFi exploration of economics is the Unincorporated Man (https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4025200-the-unincorporated-man https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/4025200-the-unincorporat...). Everyone is incorporated at birth, and trades shares in themselves (paying dividends once they are earning) to advance in life. People who don't have majority of themselves can't make their own decisions.

dkuntz2 13y ago
I thought that the concept was interesting, but their implementation was really boring and lackluster. It's been a while since I read it, but I felt that they didn't explore the implications of everyone's incorporated or how we got to that state as much as they probably should have. I couldn't even finish the second book because it didn't even have the interesting bits about people being incorporated, it was just a poorly written sci-fi war novel.
- Blahah 13y ago
  Agree on all points. The second book was just god awful.
ggreer 13y ago
I liked the idea, but didn't enjoy the book. It was frustrating to see concepts only partially explored. For example: Apparently nobody in the civilization thought of using non-voting shares.

rasz_pl 13y ago

"Limes inferior" by Janusz Zajdel (1982) is also very interesting. Sci-fi in a post scarcity world where stupid are provided for, and smart are forced to work. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_inferior http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limes_inferior Author came up with Identity theft, spoofing, NFC, all while living in communist state in the eighties.

yozhik 13y ago

I've been playing with the idea of a 'karma economy': everyone starts with 1.0 karma. If someone uses a service or product you made, your karma increases by c * (user's karma), where c is some coefficient. Karma also decays over time, but never drops below 1.0. Creators of expensive (scarce) items could hold onto those items until someone with high karma wants one, thus maximizing their own karma gain. I'm no an economist, so I have no idea if something like this would work, but it's a lot of fun to think about. Is this similar to eh whuffies from Down and Out in the Magic Kingdom?

TheCoelacanth 13y ago
That sounds very similar, though I believe that giving someone whuffie is a voluntary action that you do when you like a service/product/etc that you got from them rather than being automatic and you can also decrease their whuffie if they do something you don't like.

markc 13y ago

James P. Hogan's "Voyage from Yesteryear" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyage_from_Yesteryear http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Voyage_from_Yesteryear is another SciFi work where a post-scarcity economy figures prominently, including some funny scenes with new arrivals who take a while to adjust. (Hoarding behavior for a while, then they bring all the stuff back when they are comfortable with it). I have experienced this myself in small measure when I took a job where all the snacks and beverages were free.

Justen 13y ago

Tagging this chain to pick one of those books later.