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> Between 10 million deaths, no correlation between dying and deserving it, and chaos and no reason to believe in political progress, versus 200,000 deaths, a h

> Between 10 million deaths, no correlation between dying and deserving it, and chaos and no reason to believe in political progress, versus 200,000 deaths, a high correlation between dying and deserving it (i.e. higher death rates among the current elite) and the likely deposition of the corporate upper class, I know which one I'd pick. While the most famous people executed during the French Revolution were from the aristocracy, the vast majority of people executed were not. Inciting rebellion and food hoarding were the common accusations. This source[1] puts it as 6.25% "nobles", 2% noblesse de robe, 14% upper-middle class, 10.5% lower-middle class, 6.5% clergy, 31.25% working class, 28% peasants, and 1% unidentified. I know you say "if it comes to that", but anyone wishing for a real revolution to enable some kind of social justice is deeply misguided. The poor and downtrodden may not be the first against the wall, but they will be there in much, much larger numbers. [1] http://www.jstor.org/stable/1881548 http://www.jstor.org/stable/1881548

busterarm 13y ago
They'd be there in larger numbers too with a pandemic due to availability of health care and also the closer proximity that lower-class people are forced to live near each other. Lower-classes get fucked in greater numbers when there is any social turmoil. They are a proportionately larger group of people. I don't have any numbers to look at but I think it's pretty likely that more than 60% of the French population during the Revolution was working class or peasants...so proportionately they may have fared better, because you have to look at their numbers in the population, not the percentages from who was killed. Anyway, the long-term social effect was (from where I'm sitting) positive.
- magicalist 13y ago
  > Anyway, the long-term social effect was (from where I'm sitting) positive The positive social effects of...the Reign of Terror? You might as well throw in the Holodomor, the Khmer Rouge's Killing Fields, The Great Leap Forward, etc etc etc as everything's much better now than it was then. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, amirite?
  - busterarm 13y ago
    The entire modern era of our civilization lies in the shadow of the French Revolution. It accelerated the rise of republics and democracies and the spread of every modern political ideology of today. 'Déclaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen' is not only a fundamental document of the Revolution but also the first (Western?) document to define all rights of men to be universal; valid at all times and in every place and pertaining to human nature itself. I think that's pretty damned positive.
    - magicalist 13y ago
      > Déclaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen' is not only a fundamental document of the Revolution but also the first (Western?) document to define all rights of men to be universal And it was published four years before the executions started in ernest. Even if it hadn't been: all revolutions cause birthing pains, but it is fallacious to argue the converse.
MaysonL 13y ago
Of course, but you have to realize that "nobles" represented much much less than 6.25% of the population.

busterarm 13y ago

They'd be there in larger numbers too with a pandemic due to availability of health care and also the closer proximity that lower-class people are forced to live near each other. Lower-classes get fucked in greater numbers when there is any social turmoil. They are a proportionately larger group of people. I don't have any numbers to look at but I think it's pretty likely that more than 60% of the French population during the Revolution was working class or peasants...so proportionately they may have fared better, because you have to look at their numbers in the population, not the percentages from who was killed. Anyway, the long-term social effect was (from where I'm sitting) positive.

magicalist 13y ago
> Anyway, the long-term social effect was (from where I'm sitting) positive The positive social effects of...the Reign of Terror? You might as well throw in the Holodomor, the Khmer Rouge's Killing Fields, The Great Leap Forward, etc etc etc as everything's much better now than it was then. Post hoc ergo propter hoc, amirite?
- busterarm 13y ago
  The entire modern era of our civilization lies in the shadow of the French Revolution. It accelerated the rise of republics and democracies and the spread of every modern political ideology of today. 'Déclaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen' is not only a fundamental document of the Revolution but also the first (Western?) document to define all rights of men to be universal; valid at all times and in every place and pertaining to human nature itself. I think that's pretty damned positive.
  - magicalist 13y ago
    > Déclaration des droits de l'homme et du citoyen' is not only a fundamental document of the Revolution but also the first (Western?) document to define all rights of men to be universal And it was published four years before the executions started in ernest. Even if it hadn't been: all revolutions cause birthing pains, but it is fallacious to argue the converse.

MaysonL 13y ago

Of course, but you have to realize that "nobles" represented much much less than 6.25% of the population.