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> Reform will take years, and in that time you are at risk. Reform is a great sentiment... Not to sound overly pessimistic, but "reform" isn't usually how citi

> Reform will take years, and in that time you are at risk. Reform is a great sentiment... Not to sound overly pessimistic, but "reform" isn't usually how citizens extricate themselves from a police state. Totalitarian governance is inherently insular and well protected from peaceful reform, using the state monopoly on violence to maintain and cultivate its will. The antithesis of peaceful reform also conveniently starts with "re," but I can't seem to remember what it is... Re... rev-o-something, I think. ;)

javajosh 13y ago
We don't have a police state! We have one of the shittiest justice systems in the world that protects bad actors and gives our police unlimited power to abuse their office without fear of repurcussion. However, freedom of speech is still very well protected, and therein lies our hope for peaceful resolution. And you know what, if Aung Yung Suu-Ki is any indication, even if we did live in a totalitarian state, there would still be hope for a peaceful resolution. And that's important because I don't believe that a state born of brutality can be anything other than brutal.
- thaumasiotes 13y ago
  > I don't believe that a state born of brutality can be anything other than brutal. This is kind of a funny sentiment. Can you name a state that wasn't born of brutality?
  - csense 13y ago
    Um...we peacefully purchased Alaska from the Russians.
    - wutbrodo 13y ago
      I'm pretty sure that that's not the sense that "state" is being used here. He's talking about sovereign states; Alaska is subordinate to America (a sovereign state) which is evident in the fact that it was purchased by America.
  - Anderkent 13y ago
    Sealand?
    - thaumasiotes 13y ago
      Just taking stuff from the wikipedia page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand )... Emphasis where it appears is mine. > In 1943, during the Second World War, HM Fort Roughs [Sealand] was constructed by the United Kingdom as one of the Maunsell Forts, primarily for defence against German mine-laying aircraft > On 2 September 1967, the fort was occupied by Major Paddy Roy Bates, a British subject and pirate radio broadcaster, who ejected a competing group of pirate broadcasters. > In 1968, British workmen entered what Bates claimed to be his territorial waters in order to service a navigational buoy near the platform. Michael Bates (son of Paddy Roy Bates) tried to scare the workmen off by firing warning shots from the former fort. > In August 1978, while Bates and his wife were in England, Alexander Achenbach, who describes himself as the Prime Minister of Sealand, hired several German and Dutch mercenaries to spearhead an attack of Roughs Tower. They stormed the tower with speedboats, jet skis and helicopters, and took Bates' son hostage. Bates was able to retake the tower and capture Achenbach and the mercenaries. And of course... > While it has been described as the world's smallest country, the world's smallest nation, or a micronation, Sealand is not currently officially recognised by any established sovereign state, although Sealand's government claims it has been de facto recognised by the United Kingdom (after an English court ruled it did not have jurisdiction over Sealand as territorial water limitations were defined at the time) and Germany Both of those claimed recognitions took place after an act of agression toward British / German citizens mentioned in the above excerpts. So you've got a platform in the ocean that was created as part of a war effort, that has been the subject of a failed and a successful military coup, whose only unofficial recognition by established states came after assaulting their citizens, and that is still not officially recognized by any other state. (And which is currently sitting in British territorial waters, after they unilaterally annexed its surrounding ocean.) And all this is for a "state" with a population estimated at "over 50".
- Zancarius 13y ago
  > We don't have a police state! We have one of the shittiest justice systems in the world that protects bad actors and gives our police unlimited power to abuse their office without fear of repurcussion [sic]. Struck a nerve? You're absolutely right. We're not a police state--yet. But if left unchecked, the powers in control of the democratic process inevitably degrade into totalitarian rule. We're seeing a glimpse of that through the paranoia of the state (think extensive surveillance). A totalitarian United States will be made known when the Bill of Rights is nullified in its entirety, and we've already started on that path. Some might argue we've been on that path since the early 1900s, some since 2000, and some since more recently. Honestly, I don't think we're at a point where reform is possible. An insufficient percentage of the population has yet been inconvenienced to enact reform. But by the time the majority is demanding it, then it will already be too late. And I fear that the average US citizen is too complacent and too ignorant to care. Neither one of those bode well for reform. [takes off tinfoil hat]
  - jrs235 13y ago
    How do you kill a frog? You put it in a pot of water and in very slight increments you slowly and systematically turn up the heat so the frog doesn't feel or perceive the change even as it boils to death.
    - whatusername 13y ago
      Great Story -- more of a myth though: http://conservationmagazine.org/2011/03/frog-fable-brought-to-boil/ http://conservationmagazine.org/2011/03/frog-fable-brought-t...
    - Zancarius 13y ago
      I suspect that means we're in agreement.

javajosh 13y ago

We don't have a police state! We have one of the shittiest justice systems in the world that protects bad actors and gives our police unlimited power to abuse their office without fear of repurcussion. However, freedom of speech is still very well protected, and therein lies our hope for peaceful resolution. And you know what, if Aung Yung Suu-Ki is any indication, even if we did live in a totalitarian state, there would still be hope for a peaceful resolution. And that's important because I don't believe that a state born of brutality can be anything other than brutal.

thaumasiotes 13y ago
> I don't believe that a state born of brutality can be anything other than brutal. This is kind of a funny sentiment. Can you name a state that wasn't born of brutality?
- csense 13y ago
  Um...we peacefully purchased Alaska from the Russians.
  - wutbrodo 13y ago
    I'm pretty sure that that's not the sense that "state" is being used here. He's talking about sovereign states; Alaska is subordinate to America (a sovereign state) which is evident in the fact that it was purchased by America.
- Anderkent 13y ago
  Sealand?
  - thaumasiotes 13y ago
    Just taking stuff from the wikipedia page ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Sealand )... Emphasis where it appears is mine. > In 1943, during the Second World War, HM Fort Roughs [Sealand] was constructed by the United Kingdom as one of the Maunsell Forts, primarily for defence against German mine-laying aircraft > On 2 September 1967, the fort was occupied by Major Paddy Roy Bates, a British subject and pirate radio broadcaster, who ejected a competing group of pirate broadcasters. > In 1968, British workmen entered what Bates claimed to be his territorial waters in order to service a navigational buoy near the platform. Michael Bates (son of Paddy Roy Bates) tried to scare the workmen off by firing warning shots from the former fort. > In August 1978, while Bates and his wife were in England, Alexander Achenbach, who describes himself as the Prime Minister of Sealand, hired several German and Dutch mercenaries to spearhead an attack of Roughs Tower. They stormed the tower with speedboats, jet skis and helicopters, and took Bates' son hostage. Bates was able to retake the tower and capture Achenbach and the mercenaries. And of course... > While it has been described as the world's smallest country, the world's smallest nation, or a micronation, Sealand is not currently officially recognised by any established sovereign state, although Sealand's government claims it has been de facto recognised by the United Kingdom (after an English court ruled it did not have jurisdiction over Sealand as territorial water limitations were defined at the time) and Germany Both of those claimed recognitions took place after an act of agression toward British / German citizens mentioned in the above excerpts. So you've got a platform in the ocean that was created as part of a war effort, that has been the subject of a failed and a successful military coup, whose only unofficial recognition by established states came after assaulting their citizens, and that is still not officially recognized by any other state. (And which is currently sitting in British territorial waters, after they unilaterally annexed its surrounding ocean.) And all this is for a "state" with a population estimated at "over 50".
Zancarius 13y ago
> We don't have a police state! We have one of the shittiest justice systems in the world that protects bad actors and gives our police unlimited power to abuse their office without fear of repurcussion [sic]. Struck a nerve? You're absolutely right. We're not a police state--yet. But if left unchecked, the powers in control of the democratic process inevitably degrade into totalitarian rule. We're seeing a glimpse of that through the paranoia of the state (think extensive surveillance). A totalitarian United States will be made known when the Bill of Rights is nullified in its entirety, and we've already started on that path. Some might argue we've been on that path since the early 1900s, some since 2000, and some since more recently. Honestly, I don't think we're at a point where reform is possible. An insufficient percentage of the population has yet been inconvenienced to enact reform. But by the time the majority is demanding it, then it will already be too late. And I fear that the average US citizen is too complacent and too ignorant to care. Neither one of those bode well for reform. [takes off tinfoil hat]
- jrs235 13y ago
  How do you kill a frog? You put it in a pot of water and in very slight increments you slowly and systematically turn up the heat so the frog doesn't feel or perceive the change even as it boils to death.
  - whatusername 13y ago
    Great Story -- more of a myth though: http://conservationmagazine.org/2011/03/frog-fable-brought-to-boil/ http://conservationmagazine.org/2011/03/frog-fable-brought-t...
  - Zancarius 13y ago
    I suspect that means we're in agreement.