3 ms·

Adoption of English language is one of the major reasons, why 3rd world countries like our, India and Pakistan are thriving in IT. I feel sad for nations, who a

by frade33 13y ago

Adoption of English language is one of the major reasons, why 3rd world countries like our, India and Pakistan are thriving in IT. I feel sad for nations, who are stubborn in their adoption of English language, merely out of political reasons. Even from a political perspective, this is sad, because you can't convey your point of view to others. Oh and by the way, India is 2nd and Pakistan is 3rd largest country by number of English language Speakers, 1st of course is USA. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-speaking_population http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_English-sp... Moreover, Do I need to name key Google and Microsoft Employees, who were born and bred in India too. :)

fidotron 13y ago
Not to disagree, but India and Pakistan are also great demonstrations that even if you can speak the words without cultural context you'll struggle. By far the most successful teams I've seen in India have been led by those that were educated in the west and went back to India (seemingly a growing trend), since they can effectively act as translators of intent.
gumby 13y ago
> I feel sad for nations, who are stubborn in their adoption of English language, merely out of political reasons. Even from a political perspective, this is sad, because you can't convey your point of view to others. Do you play music? I feel sorry for all those countries who are stubborn in their adoption of Italian, for whom "da Capo al fine" or simply "Largo" are rote words to memorize rather seeing them in an Italian context. Even from a political perspective, this is sad, because you can't convey your point of view to others. See how ludicrous this sounds? Yet indeed, just like our programming languages use "if" "case" "return" et al ("et al" is a Latin abbreviation by the way), music uses Italian keywords. Yet it's perfectly reasonable to read source code in French with anglicisms like new String scattered perfectly comprehensively throughout. It doesn't inhibit the programmer at all. Now to fully embrace your point: the number of Mandarin speakers (as a first or second language) is probably about 1.3x the total number of English speakers (as a first or second language). The implicit question of the linked article is: "perhaps there is, or soon will be, a larger pool of programming discussion for which YOU are excluded because you, merely out of political reasons, won't learn Mandarin Chinese. English is by far my favorite language to speak, but I know its limitations and don't always use it even when I can. I've noted that if I'm out with friends who all have multiple languages in common the conversation does not stay in only one of them. In programming or not, I will often read wikipedia articles on the same topic but in different languages. Quality is uneven and the most informative or insightful article is frequently not the one in English.
gtirloni 13y ago
This is pure bullshit in so many ways. There is no stubbornness. Why do you assume that? Speaking English is not a magic thing that will remove a country from a bad conditionm, if that's what you're assuming. Moreover, other countries like India and Pakistan may have other pressing issues to solve before learning a second language (e.g. sanitation, education, etc). Or they might not need it at all! Their country or region might be advanced enough or self-sustaining that they don't need to hook in the US-fueled economy that much. East Europe? Japan? India and Pakistan are not "thriving in IT" because of English alone. It's more related to people willing to work for 1/50th of what a US employee would ask for. And the language and technical skills come second usually.
- piyush_soni 13y ago
  While I agree that it is no stubbornness to not to learn English (there are many factors), though learning it has certainly been better for earning a living for many Indians. It is also great for the world. Had the mathematicians like S.N. Bose, Ramanujan not known English as their second/third language, the whole world would have been at loss. India doesn't have a 'national language' which everyone must learn. English helps them (Indians themselves) stay connected and to be able to converse. Same goes with the world. If there is a global language everyone speaks, it's good for everyone. Though I think English is a bad choice for being the 'global language', but here we are, with it being the official language of most countries in the world.
maximgsaini 13y ago
I see English as more of a liability for a country like India. Only 10% of the Indian elites have any sort of proficiency in English. Indians never developed an 'infrastructure' around their native language like China did, which results in a debilitating problem for India. There is a big language barrier in India. A poor Chinese kid doesn't need to learn a foreign language to be hired as a full time programmer. But in India, unless you have a working proficiency in English, say goodbye to any chances of being hired as a programmer. Say goodbye to any real possibility of using a computer. Say goodbye to the possibility of understanding any real biochemistry. In India, I can't take a guy from the streets, give him 2 days of training and ask him to do some work on a computer. I'll have to spend 2 months with him, teaching him a new language. Thus now there are two Indias, the 80-90% non-english speaking India, and the 10-20% english speaking elite India. And the language barrier makes it that much harder for the under-privileged India to cross over to the other side, which is not the case in China or Japan. In 10 years, the kind of language used for human communication will become irrelevant. Thus, I hope that the Indian problem won't last very long.
- mimighost 13y ago
  >> A poor Chinese kid doesn't need to learn a foreign language to be hired as a full time programmer Not really true. English proficiency is a very important factor in job hunting in China also. Most of the good programmers I know have certain level of mastery in english, at least in reading. For sure, China has its own internet ecosystem, the same applies for the programmer community. But English is still the dominant language in computer science, a fact that will not be changed in near future. China has its own english proficiency test, called "四级", literally "Level 4" or officially CET4 Test. It is required for all college students to pass this test when graduating, a huge pain for many. And we are not done :a higher level test, "六级"(Level 6, CET6) awaits for whoever wants to show better than average english fluency. Which makes thing worse, high score in those tests doesn't really guarantee real-world good english ability, so additional tests will be taken by companies themselves to make sure the candidates meet their requirement.

by frade33 13y ago

fidotron 13y ago

Not to disagree, but India and Pakistan are also great demonstrations that even if you can speak the words without cultural context you'll struggle. By far the most successful teams I've seen in India have been led by those that were educated in the west and went back to India (seemingly a growing trend), since they can effectively act as translators of intent.

gumby 13y ago

> I feel sad for nations, who are stubborn in their adoption of English language, merely out of political reasons. Even from a political perspective, this is sad, because you can't convey your point of view to others. Do you play music? I feel sorry for all those countries who are stubborn in their adoption of Italian, for whom "da Capo al fine" or simply "Largo" are rote words to memorize rather seeing them in an Italian context. Even from a political perspective, this is sad, because you can't convey your point of view to others. See how ludicrous this sounds? Yet indeed, just like our programming languages use "if" "case" "return" et al ("et al" is a Latin abbreviation by the way), music uses Italian keywords. Yet it's perfectly reasonable to read source code in French with anglicisms like new String scattered perfectly comprehensively throughout. It doesn't inhibit the programmer at all. Now to fully embrace your point: the number of Mandarin speakers (as a first or second language) is probably about 1.3x the total number of English speakers (as a first or second language). The implicit question of the linked article is: "perhaps there is, or soon will be, a larger pool of programming discussion for which YOU are excluded because you, merely out of political reasons, won't learn Mandarin Chinese. English is by far my favorite language to speak, but I know its limitations and don't always use it even when I can. I've noted that if I'm out with friends who all have multiple languages in common the conversation does not stay in only one of them. In programming or not, I will often read wikipedia articles on the same topic but in different languages. Quality is uneven and the most informative or insightful article is frequently not the one in English.

gtirloni 13y ago

This is pure bullshit in so many ways. There is no stubbornness. Why do you assume that? Speaking English is not a magic thing that will remove a country from a bad conditionm, if that's what you're assuming. Moreover, other countries like India and Pakistan may have other pressing issues to solve before learning a second language (e.g. sanitation, education, etc). Or they might not need it at all! Their country or region might be advanced enough or self-sustaining that they don't need to hook in the US-fueled economy that much. East Europe? Japan? India and Pakistan are not "thriving in IT" because of English alone. It's more related to people willing to work for 1/50th of what a US employee would ask for. And the language and technical skills come second usually.

piyush_soni 13y ago
While I agree that it is no stubbornness to not to learn English (there are many factors), though learning it has certainly been better for earning a living for many Indians. It is also great for the world. Had the mathematicians like S.N. Bose, Ramanujan not known English as their second/third language, the whole world would have been at loss. India doesn't have a 'national language' which everyone must learn. English helps them (Indians themselves) stay connected and to be able to converse. Same goes with the world. If there is a global language everyone speaks, it's good for everyone. Though I think English is a bad choice for being the 'global language', but here we are, with it being the official language of most countries in the world.

maximgsaini 13y ago

I see English as more of a liability for a country like India. Only 10% of the Indian elites have any sort of proficiency in English. Indians never developed an 'infrastructure' around their native language like China did, which results in a debilitating problem for India. There is a big language barrier in India. A poor Chinese kid doesn't need to learn a foreign language to be hired as a full time programmer. But in India, unless you have a working proficiency in English, say goodbye to any chances of being hired as a programmer. Say goodbye to any real possibility of using a computer. Say goodbye to the possibility of understanding any real biochemistry. In India, I can't take a guy from the streets, give him 2 days of training and ask him to do some work on a computer. I'll have to spend 2 months with him, teaching him a new language. Thus now there are two Indias, the 80-90% non-english speaking India, and the 10-20% english speaking elite India. And the language barrier makes it that much harder for the under-privileged India to cross over to the other side, which is not the case in China or Japan. In 10 years, the kind of language used for human communication will become irrelevant. Thus, I hope that the Indian problem won't last very long.

mimighost 13y ago
>> A poor Chinese kid doesn't need to learn a foreign language to be hired as a full time programmer Not really true. English proficiency is a very important factor in job hunting in China also. Most of the good programmers I know have certain level of mastery in english, at least in reading. For sure, China has its own internet ecosystem, the same applies for the programmer community. But English is still the dominant language in computer science, a fact that will not be changed in near future. China has its own english proficiency test, called "四级", literally "Level 4" or officially CET4 Test. It is required for all college students to pass this test when graduating, a huge pain for many. And we are not done :a higher level test, "六级"(Level 6, CET6) awaits for whoever wants to show better than average english fluency. Which makes thing worse, high score in those tests doesn't really guarantee real-world good english ability, so additional tests will be taken by companies themselves to make sure the candidates meet their requirement.