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Shameless plug: I'm building Penflip.com, an alternative to Editorially. It has a clean markdown writing interface and git for version control. It's like GitH

Shameless plug: I'm building Penflip.com, an alternative to Editorially. It has a clean markdown writing interface and git for version control. It's like GitHub, but for writing. I quit my job 5 months ago and have been working on this full time ever since, 100% bootstrapped. I think the space still has tons of untapped potential. http://www.penflip.com http://www.penflip.com

gtirloni 13y ago
I don't see a pricing page. What's your business model? Sorry if this question is too intrusive but I'm always asking that before using any online service to identify if I'm the product being sold.
- guynamedloren 13y ago
  Coding up pricing right this minute, actually. It's going to be similar to Github: free for public projects, small monthly fee (~$8) for private projects.
  - leobelle 13y ago
    Seems too small a price. A lot of people like to use the GitHub pricing model but it's a very unique thing. Imagine how many $8 a month subscriptions you would need for just one software engineer. You're looking at needing 1k paid subscriptions per employee. If you can get 1,000 paying customers you're doing really, really well. Personally I'd consider charging more, and not have any kind of free product. Free versions are time and money sinks, and even if you say it's limited support, you're going to spend valuable time helping people who will never support your startup and all your hard work by giving you what matters, their money. If you don't think you can charge more than $8 a month and have people pay you, I consider thinking about features that add more value. Also, this is just me speaking from personal experience, a lot of people like to dish out advice to startups, so I know where my feedback fits in. Not everything applies to everyone, but when I see sub-$20 plans and freemium it's such a warning signal. Like a klaxxon in my brain. You need some usually unrealistic name recognition and social network type hockeystick adoption for an $8 plan to ever work.
    - pagekicker 13y ago
      good comments I think
    - guynamedloren 13y ago
      You're totally right. It's not a lot. At this point, I'm only looking to cover server bills, then living expenses after that. Baby steps. The $8/mo is just a starting point. There's also a $22 plan for more private projects. The real business is in organizations and enterprise. The software has much, much more potential for groups vs single users with some collaborators. Those plans are coming down the road, I just can't develop fast enough. I'm excited.
      - leobelle 13y ago
        Based on experience, I think your $8 plan will cannibalize your $22 a plan. The cold hard math of more private projects probably doesn't justify paying 150% more.
    - Xylakant 13y ago
      I totally agree here. An $8 plan may be viable if you're trying to target hobbyists or for an entry level plan, but if it exists at all it must be paired with a professional plan that cost significantly more. Remember you're trying to target professionals that treat time as money. If your tool brings enough features to the table to save a single hour a month, that's worth at least $20 for anyone in a professional capacity. If it doesn't then it's basically useless.
scholia 13y ago
Thanks, that looks interesting ... but I don't really see the point, unless it's about collaboration. (I write in customized templates in Microsoft Word's Web View.)
- gabemart 13y ago
  I'm in the middle of using github to write a science fiction novel (about 60% through, currently). Git isn't perfect for text, but it's the least problematic of all systems I've tried. It keeps everything by default. It allows non-destructive edits. Commit-with-comment is a decent system for allowing others to suggest edits. It provides a good backwards-looking overview of where you are and how you got there. There are some nifty analysis things you can do with it. It's probably not suitable for the whole pipeline, but for drafting and editing it's solid.
  - scholia 13y ago
    Did you look at Scrivener? Massive overkill for my purposes (600-1200 words) but designed for long-form writing....
    - gabemart 13y ago
      I've looked at it, but the features don't match my needs very well. On the input side, I don't need much more than basic text editing. On the backend, Scrivener has versioning, but I feel like git is more robust. There's also more information online about how to do interesting analytical things with git.
jenius 13y ago
Does this announcement make you nervous about continuing your product? Are you interested in being connected to the people behind editorially to talk about it?
- guynamedloren 13y ago
  > Does this announcement make you nervous about continuing your product? Not at all. Execution is everything. > Are you interested in being connected to the people behind editorially to talk about it? Sure, can you connect me?
  - enewc 13y ago
    I disagree. If you have a flawed business model, or a product that's simply not that desirable, then execution doesn't matter. Junk ideas remain junk, regardless of how well they are marketed. In this case, it's my opinion that the startup in question was just never a good idea to begin with. No solid business model and no good reason why it would be widely adopted.
    - kkowalczyk 13y ago
      I'm not the author of penflip but you're missing a big thing: Editorially had 11 people on staff (https://editorially.com/about https://editorially.com/about). Penflip apparently is just one person. If penflip makes $500k/year, it's a lot for 1 person but not even close to covering 11 people. Collaborative writing is not a junk idea. There is a bazillion of different takes on that (draft, all the etherpad clones, google docs, ...).
      - kskz 13y ago
        Starting an entire company based on collaborative writing is a junk idea. It's a niche service without much room for improvement, and it's currently being provided for free by one of the largest software companies in the world. There is no way that this will ever achieve anything close to $500k/year. For this to happen, at $8/month it needs to attract 5000+ subscribing, paying users. This is not going to happen when anyone can just use Google docs for free. Especially when Google is more well-known, better maintained, and integrates into existing Google accounts. There is just no good reason to sign up for a new service. Most people have never heard of draft or etherpad. I'm willing to be that they are not actually generating any substantial revenue either, which is the benchmark for whether it's a good idea to start a business or not.
freshyill 13y ago
I've been working on some technical documentation using Penflip, and I've really been loving it. Small quibble: Using either underscores or asterisks to make are valid in markdown for making italics. The buttons in the editor use underscores. I would really love the option to choose which one the buttons generate.
- guynamedloren 13y ago
  That is a small quibble indeed :) Have to say I actually prefer underscores as well.
diydsp 13y ago
To me, markdown IS clutter. Currently I use google docs and mediawiki for collaborative writing. I would try to differentiate yourself from those two options. I agree there is untapped potential in collaborative document editing, but in my consulting experience with corporations, the missing factor isn't the editing experience, but in the linking together of docs and multimedia inclusion. You are potentially on a long, long road, but godspeed to you!
miccohen 13y ago
I've been using Penflip to crowdsource & collaborate on stories from startups for a book called "The Other Side of Startups". Feel free to contribute to it here: https://www.penflip.com/MicahCohen/the-other-side-of-startups https://www.penflip.com/MicahCohen/the-other-side-of-startup...
pknight 13y ago
I've looked at your project for the purposes of writing a book but it feels like the technology should be able to do so much more and make things easier. These were my initial penflip impressions: * I'm ambivalent to markup, it's not a big feature to me. It's another thing to get used to when I'm really looking for book writing to make things easier straight away. * It makes certain actions more tedious. I want to be able to write subsections, move 'm around if need be. I don't want to be tasked with creating files for chapters and what not. * It's far too technical looking. It's too much like Git. Git is great for code, I love it for that. But Git is pretty involved. Writing should be made easy. The only thing hard about writing should be the writing itself. I don't want to read a manual to learn how to use the tool. If I'm writing a book, all I need to know is how do I create chapter 1 and start typing from there. Everything else becomes information overload. Surely there must be a nicer way to get the benefits of Git for writing but for an audience that doesn't want to think technical. I do recognize your project is still in the early stages and you've purposely kept your feature list small to begin with. I hope it becomes something huge and I agree with you the market is there.
- guynamedloren 13y ago
  Thanks for the feedback, and for checking out Penflip. Usability is definitely not a trivial task to solve, especially while trying to maintain all of the version control power that comes with git. That said, when was the last time you played around with Penflip? I've received lots of similar feedback (too technical, too hard to use, cluttered UI) so I'm continually stripping down the interface and simplifying everything. In the past few weeks the writing interface has been cleaned up quite a bit. Still has a ways to go, but it's getting there.

gtirloni 13y ago

I don't see a pricing page. What's your business model? Sorry if this question is too intrusive but I'm always asking that before using any online service to identify if I'm the product being sold.

guynamedloren 13y ago
Coding up pricing right this minute, actually. It's going to be similar to Github: free for public projects, small monthly fee (~$8) for private projects.
- leobelle 13y ago
  Seems too small a price. A lot of people like to use the GitHub pricing model but it's a very unique thing. Imagine how many $8 a month subscriptions you would need for just one software engineer. You're looking at needing 1k paid subscriptions per employee. If you can get 1,000 paying customers you're doing really, really well. Personally I'd consider charging more, and not have any kind of free product. Free versions are time and money sinks, and even if you say it's limited support, you're going to spend valuable time helping people who will never support your startup and all your hard work by giving you what matters, their money. If you don't think you can charge more than $8 a month and have people pay you, I consider thinking about features that add more value. Also, this is just me speaking from personal experience, a lot of people like to dish out advice to startups, so I know where my feedback fits in. Not everything applies to everyone, but when I see sub-$20 plans and freemium it's such a warning signal. Like a klaxxon in my brain. You need some usually unrealistic name recognition and social network type hockeystick adoption for an $8 plan to ever work.
  - pagekicker 13y ago
    good comments I think
  - guynamedloren 13y ago
    You're totally right. It's not a lot. At this point, I'm only looking to cover server bills, then living expenses after that. Baby steps. The $8/mo is just a starting point. There's also a $22 plan for more private projects. The real business is in organizations and enterprise. The software has much, much more potential for groups vs single users with some collaborators. Those plans are coming down the road, I just can't develop fast enough. I'm excited.
    - leobelle 13y ago
      Based on experience, I think your $8 plan will cannibalize your $22 a plan. The cold hard math of more private projects probably doesn't justify paying 150% more.
  - Xylakant 13y ago
    I totally agree here. An $8 plan may be viable if you're trying to target hobbyists or for an entry level plan, but if it exists at all it must be paired with a professional plan that cost significantly more. Remember you're trying to target professionals that treat time as money. If your tool brings enough features to the table to save a single hour a month, that's worth at least $20 for anyone in a professional capacity. If it doesn't then it's basically useless.

scholia 13y ago

Thanks, that looks interesting ... but I don't really see the point, unless it's about collaboration. (I write in customized templates in Microsoft Word's Web View.)

gabemart 13y ago
I'm in the middle of using github to write a science fiction novel (about 60% through, currently). Git isn't perfect for text, but it's the least problematic of all systems I've tried. It keeps everything by default. It allows non-destructive edits. Commit-with-comment is a decent system for allowing others to suggest edits. It provides a good backwards-looking overview of where you are and how you got there. There are some nifty analysis things you can do with it. It's probably not suitable for the whole pipeline, but for drafting and editing it's solid.
- scholia 13y ago
  Did you look at Scrivener? Massive overkill for my purposes (600-1200 words) but designed for long-form writing....
  - gabemart 13y ago
    I've looked at it, but the features don't match my needs very well. On the input side, I don't need much more than basic text editing. On the backend, Scrivener has versioning, but I feel like git is more robust. There's also more information online about how to do interesting analytical things with git.

jenius 13y ago

Does this announcement make you nervous about continuing your product? Are you interested in being connected to the people behind editorially to talk about it?

guynamedloren 13y ago
> Does this announcement make you nervous about continuing your product? Not at all. Execution is everything. > Are you interested in being connected to the people behind editorially to talk about it? Sure, can you connect me?
- enewc 13y ago
  I disagree. If you have a flawed business model, or a product that's simply not that desirable, then execution doesn't matter. Junk ideas remain junk, regardless of how well they are marketed. In this case, it's my opinion that the startup in question was just never a good idea to begin with. No solid business model and no good reason why it would be widely adopted.
  - kkowalczyk 13y ago
    I'm not the author of penflip but you're missing a big thing: Editorially had 11 people on staff (https://editorially.com/about https://editorially.com/about). Penflip apparently is just one person. If penflip makes $500k/year, it's a lot for 1 person but not even close to covering 11 people. Collaborative writing is not a junk idea. There is a bazillion of different takes on that (draft, all the etherpad clones, google docs, ...).
    - kskz 13y ago
      Starting an entire company based on collaborative writing is a junk idea. It's a niche service without much room for improvement, and it's currently being provided for free by one of the largest software companies in the world. There is no way that this will ever achieve anything close to $500k/year. For this to happen, at $8/month it needs to attract 5000+ subscribing, paying users. This is not going to happen when anyone can just use Google docs for free. Especially when Google is more well-known, better maintained, and integrates into existing Google accounts. There is just no good reason to sign up for a new service. Most people have never heard of draft or etherpad. I'm willing to be that they are not actually generating any substantial revenue either, which is the benchmark for whether it's a good idea to start a business or not.

freshyill 13y ago

I've been working on some technical documentation using Penflip, and I've really been loving it. Small quibble: Using either underscores or asterisks to make are valid in markdown for making italics. The buttons in the editor use underscores. I would really love the option to choose which one the buttons generate.

guynamedloren 13y ago
That is a small quibble indeed :) Have to say I actually prefer underscores as well.

diydsp 13y ago

To me, markdown IS clutter. Currently I use google docs and mediawiki for collaborative writing. I would try to differentiate yourself from those two options. I agree there is untapped potential in collaborative document editing, but in my consulting experience with corporations, the missing factor isn't the editing experience, but in the linking together of docs and multimedia inclusion. You are potentially on a long, long road, but godspeed to you!

miccohen 13y ago

I've been using Penflip to crowdsource & collaborate on stories from startups for a book called "The Other Side of Startups". Feel free to contribute to it here: https://www.penflip.com/MicahCohen/the-other-side-of-startups https://www.penflip.com/MicahCohen/the-other-side-of-startup...

pknight 13y ago

I've looked at your project for the purposes of writing a book but it feels like the technology should be able to do so much more and make things easier. These were my initial penflip impressions: * I'm ambivalent to markup, it's not a big feature to me. It's another thing to get used to when I'm really looking for book writing to make things easier straight away. * It makes certain actions more tedious. I want to be able to write subsections, move 'm around if need be. I don't want to be tasked with creating files for chapters and what not. * It's far too technical looking. It's too much like Git. Git is great for code, I love it for that. But Git is pretty involved. Writing should be made easy. The only thing hard about writing should be the writing itself. I don't want to read a manual to learn how to use the tool. If I'm writing a book, all I need to know is how do I create chapter 1 and start typing from there. Everything else becomes information overload. Surely there must be a nicer way to get the benefits of Git for writing but for an audience that doesn't want to think technical. I do recognize your project is still in the early stages and you've purposely kept your feature list small to begin with. I hope it becomes something huge and I agree with you the market is there.

guynamedloren 13y ago
Thanks for the feedback, and for checking out Penflip. Usability is definitely not a trivial task to solve, especially while trying to maintain all of the version control power that comes with git. That said, when was the last time you played around with Penflip? I've received lots of similar feedback (too technical, too hard to use, cluttered UI) so I'm continually stripping down the interface and simplifying everything. In the past few weeks the writing interface has been cleaned up quite a bit. Still has a ways to go, but it's getting there.