5 ms·

Cargo Cult Science, by Richard Feynman (1974)

31 points by vinutheraj 17y ago

tokenadult 17y ago
"Another example is the ESP experiments of Mr. Rhine, and other people. As various people have made criticisms--and they themselves have made criticisms of their own experiments--they improve the techniques so that the effects are smaller, and smaller, and smaller until they gradually disappear. All the parapsychologists are looking for some experiment that can be repeated--that you can do again and get the same effect--statistically, even. They run a million rats no, it’s people this time they do a lot of things and get a certain statistical effect. Next time they try it they don’t get it any more. And now you find a man saying that it is an irrelevant demand to expect a repeatable experiment. This is science?" Feynman noticed the scientific procedure problems in parapsychology "research," and later investigators responded to his suggestion to be better research by carefully debunking claims about ESP research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Alpha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Alpha
lionhearted 17y ago
I'm just finishing "Surely You're Joking Mr. Feynman" - what a damn good book. For a few years, I'd read references and anecdotes and cool snippets and meant to read it, but I never got around to it. And now I'm kicking myself that I didn't earlier, because it's wonderful and illuminating and my worldview is greatly expanded. You, yes YOU, if you haven't read it yet, get your copy and read it. You'll be happy you did. It reads fast, and you'll learn a lot about society and love and engineering and science and mixing with people very different than you. Just an amazing read. It's worth taking a 30 minute break from Hacker News each day for a month to read it, it's like the essence of Hacker News distilled into witty, insightful, gorgeous easy-yet-deep reading. Amazon, no affiliate link (really, add it to your cart and get it with your next order - no excuse not to, anyone who likes this site will love this book): http://www.amazon.com/Surely-Feynman-Adventures-Curious-Character/dp/0393316041 http://www.amazon.com/Surely-Feynman-Adventures-Curious-Char...
- Create 17y ago
  I could just hope, that William H. Gates will still have enough income to buy the right to copy this book, and put it out on Silverlight, out of pure fascination for science and integrity; so that Amazon will need not meddle with the freedom of the Right to Read. Until then, those whom dare to click through and read seem to be in breach of the law. May you have that freedom. Lucky it's not source code with all those 4 freedoms...
  - jacquesm 17y ago
    Why on silverlight, why not on project gutenberg ?
    - Create 17y ago
      ask W.H.G. ...if I were to guess, the real answer might have to do something with control for power. Speaking of integrity, power and Gutenberg: "Understanding Power" is quite a book.
    - deleted 17y ago
      [deleted]
deleted 17y ago
[deleted]
10ren 17y ago
> The next experiment, and the one after that, never referred to Mr. Young. I read this years ago, and it left me with the impression that most science is cargo cult science (90% of everything?). It's a delight to read people with ridiculous levels of integrity - like Chomsky or Feynman. It's a shame that integrity seems to require Socratic heroism.
- nazgulnarsil 17y ago
  Chomsky espouses some pretty strange political views.
- berntb 17y ago
  I don't know about Chomsky, either. There has been some harsh criticism about integrity on e.g. Cambodia. It seems to me that Chomsky notes something obvious -- USA has an egoistic foreign policy and lies about it, like most every country (see "realpolitik"). When Chomsky then gives his explaination for the lies, he seems to border on conspiracy theories].
  - berntb 17y ago
    For instance, has this been answered? http://jim.com/chomsdis.htm http://jim.com/chomsdis.htm Here is a cute list: http://www.paulbogdanor.com/chomsky/200chomskylies.pdf http://www.paulbogdanor.com/chomsky/200chomskylies.pdf I read those a while ago, but don't really know (or care) enough to build a certain opinion. If I would respect Chomsky as an intellectual, I'd first want to see serious answers to those.
- Create 17y ago
  Programmers owe far more to the works of Chomsky -- more than most are aware of, or care to admit. Without his rigorous stance, I am not sure if compilers(!) and programming languages would exist, the way they do now. Research has been more openly industrialized in the past few decades; it is hard to escape pseudoscience due to the sheer mass production. Deprecated Phd.-s are just a symptom, pseudo-Phd.-s just make matter worse. Cargo-cult is quite easy to unmask for anybody, pseudoscience is tougher by design. "Because of the success of science, there is, I think, a kind of pseudoscience. Social science is an example of a science which is not a science; they don't do [things] scientifically; they follow the forms -- you gather data, you do so-and-so and so forth but they don't get any laws, they haven't found out anything.... You see, I have the advantage of having found out how hard it is to get to really know something, how careful you have to be about checking the experiment, how easy it is to make mistakes and fool yourself. I know what it means to know something, and therefore I see how they get their information and I can't believe they know it, they haven't done the work necessary, haven't done the checks necessary, haven't done the care necessary. I have a great suspicion that they don't know, that this stuff is [wrong], and they're intimidating people." -- The Pleasure of Finding Things Out, by Richard P. Feynman
nebula 17y ago
<quote> One time I sat down in a bath where there was a beautiful girl sitting with a guy who didn’t seem to know her. Right away I began thinking, “Gee! How am I gonna get started talking to this beautiful nude babe?” I’m trying to figure out what to say, when the guy says to her, I’m, uh, studying massage. Could I practice on you? </quote> :)

31 points by vinutheraj 17y ago

"Another example is the ESP experiments of Mr. Rhine, and other people. As various people have made criticisms--and they themselves have made criticisms of their own experiments--they improve the techniques so that the effects are smaller, and smaller, and smaller until they gradually disappear. All the parapsychologists are looking for some experiment that can be repeated--that you can do again and get the same effect--statistically, even. They run a million rats no, it’s people this time they do a lot of things and get a certain statistical effect. Next time they try it they don’t get it any more. And now you find a man saying that it is an irrelevant demand to expect a repeatable experiment. This is science?" Feynman noticed the scientific procedure problems in parapsychology "research," and later investigators responded to his suggestion to be better research by carefully debunking claims about ESP research. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Alpha http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Alpha

lionhearted 17y ago

I'm just finishing "Surely You're Joking Mr. Feynman" - what a damn good book. For a few years, I'd read references and anecdotes and cool snippets and meant to read it, but I never got around to it. And now I'm kicking myself that I didn't earlier, because it's wonderful and illuminating and my worldview is greatly expanded. You, yes YOU, if you haven't read it yet, get your copy and read it. You'll be happy you did. It reads fast, and you'll learn a lot about society and love and engineering and science and mixing with people very different than you. Just an amazing read. It's worth taking a 30 minute break from Hacker News each day for a month to read it, it's like the essence of Hacker News distilled into witty, insightful, gorgeous easy-yet-deep reading. Amazon, no affiliate link (really, add it to your cart and get it with your next order - no excuse not to, anyone who likes this site will love this book): http://www.amazon.com/Surely-Feynman-Adventures-Curious-Character/dp/0393316041 http://www.amazon.com/Surely-Feynman-Adventures-Curious-Char...

Create 17y ago
I could just hope, that William H. Gates will still have enough income to buy the right to copy this book, and put it out on Silverlight, out of pure fascination for science and integrity; so that Amazon will need not meddle with the freedom of the Right to Read. Until then, those whom dare to click through and read seem to be in breach of the law. May you have that freedom. Lucky it's not source code with all those 4 freedoms...
- jacquesm 17y ago
  Why on silverlight, why not on project gutenberg ?
  - Create 17y ago
    ask W.H.G. ...if I were to guess, the real answer might have to do something with control for power. Speaking of integrity, power and Gutenberg: "Understanding Power" is quite a book.
  - deleted 17y ago
    [deleted]

deleted 17y ago

[deleted]

10ren 17y ago

> The next experiment, and the one after that, never referred to Mr. Young. I read this years ago, and it left me with the impression that most science is cargo cult science (90% of everything?). It's a delight to read people with ridiculous levels of integrity - like Chomsky or Feynman. It's a shame that integrity seems to require Socratic heroism.

nazgulnarsil 17y ago
Chomsky espouses some pretty strange political views.
berntb 17y ago
I don't know about Chomsky, either. There has been some harsh criticism about integrity on e.g. Cambodia. It seems to me that Chomsky notes something obvious -- USA has an egoistic foreign policy and lies about it, like most every country (see "realpolitik"). When Chomsky then gives his explaination for the lies, he seems to border on conspiracy theories].
- berntb 17y ago
  For instance, has this been answered? http://jim.com/chomsdis.htm http://jim.com/chomsdis.htm Here is a cute list: http://www.paulbogdanor.com/chomsky/200chomskylies.pdf http://www.paulbogdanor.com/chomsky/200chomskylies.pdf I read those a while ago, but don't really know (or care) enough to build a certain opinion. If I would respect Chomsky as an intellectual, I'd first want to see serious answers to those.
Create 17y ago
Programmers owe far more to the works of Chomsky -- more than most are aware of, or care to admit. Without his rigorous stance, I am not sure if compilers(!) and programming languages would exist, the way they do now. Research has been more openly industrialized in the past few decades; it is hard to escape pseudoscience due to the sheer mass production. Deprecated Phd.-s are just a symptom, pseudo-Phd.-s just make matter worse. Cargo-cult is quite easy to unmask for anybody, pseudoscience is tougher by design. "Because of the success of science, there is, I think, a kind of pseudoscience. Social science is an example of a science which is not a science; they don't do [things] scientifically; they follow the forms -- you gather data, you do so-and-so and so forth but they don't get any laws, they haven't found out anything.... You see, I have the advantage of having found out how hard it is to get to really know something, how careful you have to be about checking the experiment, how easy it is to make mistakes and fool yourself. I know what it means to know something, and therefore I see how they get their information and I can't believe they know it, they haven't done the work necessary, haven't done the checks necessary, haven't done the care necessary. I have a great suspicion that they don't know, that this stuff is [wrong], and they're intimidating people." -- The Pleasure of Finding Things Out, by Richard P. Feynman

nebula 17y ago

<quote> One time I sat down in a bath where there was a beautiful girl sitting with a guy who didn’t seem to know her. Right away I began thinking, “Gee! How am I gonna get started talking to this beautiful nude babe?” I’m trying to figure out what to say, when the guy says to her, I’m, uh, studying massage. Could I practice on you? </quote> :)