5 ms·

Junior pilot salaries are not the problem. Senior pilot salaries are. Basically unions are running a ponzi scheme, where they get juniors to buy in to this cra

Junior pilot salaries are not the problem. Senior pilot salaries are. Basically unions are running a ponzi scheme, where they get juniors to buy in to this crazy scheme under promise that they will be making hundreds of thousands of dollars salary ten or twenty years down the road. I think that at this time the relationship between senior and junior pilots is pretty representative of how boomers are shafting the younger generations.

jonknee 13y ago
> Junior pilot salaries are not the problem. Senior pilot salaries are. Are they though? Senior pilots fly much larger aircraft on much longer routes. The $21k pilot mentioned in the article is flying a 50-seat commuter on low-profit routes. A senior pilot for an international airline (the type that do make $200k) is flying a wide body that seats 350-500 people and flies over oceans. They're making 10x, but also flying equipment that costs 10x, carrying 10x the people and making the airline a lot more money. Also, senior pilots by definition have a limited amount of time left in their career (thanks to mandatory retirement age), the big paychecks don't last too many years.
- Robin_Message 13y ago
  The equipment is better for making the airline money, but doesn't sound especially more difficult to operate, certainly not 10x as difficult. Does working on a product that produces 10x the revenue justify paying ten times as much? Union seniority rules (where pay increases with time of employment, and the cushiest jobs go to the most "senior") are one of the worse parts of unions IMHO, and discredit what should be a positive force for more reasonable, equitable workplaces. > Also, senior pilots by definition have a limited amount of time left in their career (thanks to mandatory retirement age), the big paychecks don't last too many years. I'm guessing large pensions for retired senior pilots are also part of the problem.
  - davedx 13y ago
    > Does working on a product that produces 10x the revenue justify paying ten times as much? But how else do you quantify salaries in business?
    - michaelt 13y ago
      I pay the same for a pencil whether I use it to write a bestselling novel or to doodle in boring lectures.
  - raverbashing 13y ago
    It's not only about "difficulty of operating the equipment" which, yes, is not that much complicated It's experience, especially in: - Dealing with foreign ATC - Meteorological conditions - Emergency situations
    - mnw21cam 13y ago
      It's about responsibility. The captain of an airplane is responsible for the lives of everyone aboard, and for the equipment itself. It is a criminal offense to disobey an order given by the captain.
  - jonknee 13y ago
    > Union seniority rules (where pay increases with time of employment, and the cushiest jobs go to the most "senior") are one of the worse parts of unions IMHO, and discredit what should be a positive force for more reasonable, equitable workplaces. Opposed to non-union workplaces where the inexperienced workers make the most money? Experience always pays more. I understand what you're getting at where it's not fair that a young superstar makes less than an old know-nothing, but in general more years of experience does equal more value. I'd want the heart surgeon who has 25+ years of experience more than I'd want the kid just off the residency. I'm sure the younger surgeon has the chops, but if the one in a million thing happens during my surgery I want the experienced surgeon. Pilots are very similar.
    - mgkimsal 13y ago
      There's usually other ways to demonstrate experience than just years on the job, but in union shops that is the primary indicator. At least, that's how I remember it (worked in a union shop for a total of... 8 weeks?) In many jobs, there's not much more experience you need to get the job done, so 'time on job' is really all there is. Flying... certainly more experience should equate to better ability (dealing with weather, etc). Cutting meat in a butcher shop? 10 days or 10 years is going to be pretty much the same.
    - arethuza 13y ago
      Indeed, if something goes wrong I want the same level of skill as the guys who landed the plane in the Hudson or saved a 747 after a volcano stopped all 4 engines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9 The famous announcement from the latter emergency: "Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them going again. I trust you are not in too much distress."
- kashkhan 13y ago
  $21k works out to $10 per hour assuming the pilot works 2100 hours a year. Right now I am hiring commercial pilots at $25 per hour though not for 8 hours a day, like commuter pilots. An A380 burns 4000 gallons of jet fuel per hour which converts to roughly $24000 per hour. Even if you paid the pilots $100 each and had four of them, (main plus relief), the pilots represent a tiny sliver of the op cost. The smallest commuter planes cost about $2k per hour total. so paying $20 out of that for the two pilots is a ripoff. I would gladly pay 1% more on my ticket and have all of that go to the better quality pilots and crew. Airlines should be required to show what portion of their revenue goes where. Maybe also add a tip jar for the crew.
- SyneRyder 13y ago
  "carrying 10x the people and making the airline a lot more money" Are they? I remember reading that the Qantas international routes were unprofitable for the company, and I've been on long haul Singapore Airlines flights where everyone had an entire row to themselves. (Of course, some routes are vastly more profitable than others.)
  - jonknee 13y ago
    Obviously it depends on the route (ideally one that has no competition and a lot of passengers), but you definitely have more room for profit when carrying 500 people. I've been on a fair share of empty commuter flights as well, you know they're losing money even just counting fuel costs.
  - yardie 13y ago
    For BA the international and cargo flights subsidize everything else in the company. European flights are losing out to LCCs, rail, and bus. If Qantas is losing money on their international fleet someone is embezzling a shitload of money. Qantas rules Australian airports. Qantas is in half a dozen codeshare agreements (typically an airline is in one, Oneworld, Skyteam, etc.) because they can do whatever they want.
    - SyneRyder 13y ago
      That could be, Moodys recently downgraded Qantas stock to Junk status, and Qantas have been seeking a government bailout: http://www.smh.com.au/business/moodys-cuts-qantas-credit-rating-by-two-notches-to-junk-status-20140109-30kj0.html http://www.smh.com.au/business/moodys-cuts-qantas-credit-rat... And Qantas was losing $262 Million per year on international, which they've apparently narrowed to a $91 Million annual loss by dropping half of their international routes. For Qantas it was the domestic routes that were subsidizing international: http://skift.com/2013/02/22/qantas-profits-double-after-aussie-airline-drops-half-of-its-international-routes/ http://skift.com/2013/02/22/qantas-profits-double-after-auss...
runako 13y ago
>> buy in to this crazy scheme under promise that they will be making hundreds of thousands of dollars salary ten or twenty years down the road. FWIW, that's how most careers work: juniors make small money, seniors make much more. Tech is an outlier in that new grads often make a substantial fraction of the terminal salary for the field. (Which makes some sense given the rampant ageism in hiring.)
- TheAnimus 13y ago
  But if you study now, you are going to have $150k of debt just for your full license and maybe one larger type rating. Any jet time and that number will rise very quickly. I hear from my US pilot friends, that they also must have a college education too. Compare that to the UK, where training costs more, but is often paid by the company in exchange for 5 years, the wages are a lot higher. In the US, my instructor was charging pretty much minimum wage, he needed the hours, he was a very good instructor. In the UK I've had terrible instructors who are still demanding $80 per hour. (And some great retired old timers who do it for free, the love of the antique planes!) The US is very lucky, there is a massive military that pumps out trained pilots, some even with ATP, I think this is one of the reasons why they have been able to pay so little. However the rest of the world pays more.
- JanezStupar 13y ago
  Sure at a glance... But once you start looking into it... The proportions are completely insane for the pilots.

jonknee 13y ago

> Junior pilot salaries are not the problem. Senior pilot salaries are. Are they though? Senior pilots fly much larger aircraft on much longer routes. The $21k pilot mentioned in the article is flying a 50-seat commuter on low-profit routes. A senior pilot for an international airline (the type that do make $200k) is flying a wide body that seats 350-500 people and flies over oceans. They're making 10x, but also flying equipment that costs 10x, carrying 10x the people and making the airline a lot more money. Also, senior pilots by definition have a limited amount of time left in their career (thanks to mandatory retirement age), the big paychecks don't last too many years.

Robin_Message 13y ago
The equipment is better for making the airline money, but doesn't sound especially more difficult to operate, certainly not 10x as difficult. Does working on a product that produces 10x the revenue justify paying ten times as much? Union seniority rules (where pay increases with time of employment, and the cushiest jobs go to the most "senior") are one of the worse parts of unions IMHO, and discredit what should be a positive force for more reasonable, equitable workplaces. > Also, senior pilots by definition have a limited amount of time left in their career (thanks to mandatory retirement age), the big paychecks don't last too many years. I'm guessing large pensions for retired senior pilots are also part of the problem.
- davedx 13y ago
  > Does working on a product that produces 10x the revenue justify paying ten times as much? But how else do you quantify salaries in business?
  - michaelt 13y ago
    I pay the same for a pencil whether I use it to write a bestselling novel or to doodle in boring lectures.
- raverbashing 13y ago
  It's not only about "difficulty of operating the equipment" which, yes, is not that much complicated It's experience, especially in: - Dealing with foreign ATC - Meteorological conditions - Emergency situations
  - mnw21cam 13y ago
    It's about responsibility. The captain of an airplane is responsible for the lives of everyone aboard, and for the equipment itself. It is a criminal offense to disobey an order given by the captain.
- jonknee 13y ago
  > Union seniority rules (where pay increases with time of employment, and the cushiest jobs go to the most "senior") are one of the worse parts of unions IMHO, and discredit what should be a positive force for more reasonable, equitable workplaces. Opposed to non-union workplaces where the inexperienced workers make the most money? Experience always pays more. I understand what you're getting at where it's not fair that a young superstar makes less than an old know-nothing, but in general more years of experience does equal more value. I'd want the heart surgeon who has 25+ years of experience more than I'd want the kid just off the residency. I'm sure the younger surgeon has the chops, but if the one in a million thing happens during my surgery I want the experienced surgeon. Pilots are very similar.
  - mgkimsal 13y ago
    There's usually other ways to demonstrate experience than just years on the job, but in union shops that is the primary indicator. At least, that's how I remember it (worked in a union shop for a total of... 8 weeks?) In many jobs, there's not much more experience you need to get the job done, so 'time on job' is really all there is. Flying... certainly more experience should equate to better ability (dealing with weather, etc). Cutting meat in a butcher shop? 10 days or 10 years is going to be pretty much the same.
  - arethuza 13y ago
    Indeed, if something goes wrong I want the same level of skill as the guys who landed the plane in the Hudson or saved a 747 after a volcano stopped all 4 engines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/US_Airways_Flight_1549 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Airways_Flight_9 The famous announcement from the latter emergency: "Ladies and gentlemen, this is your captain speaking. We have a small problem. All four engines have stopped. We are doing our damnedest to get them going again. I trust you are not in too much distress."
kashkhan 13y ago
$21k works out to $10 per hour assuming the pilot works 2100 hours a year. Right now I am hiring commercial pilots at $25 per hour though not for 8 hours a day, like commuter pilots. An A380 burns 4000 gallons of jet fuel per hour which converts to roughly $24000 per hour. Even if you paid the pilots $100 each and had four of them, (main plus relief), the pilots represent a tiny sliver of the op cost. The smallest commuter planes cost about $2k per hour total. so paying $20 out of that for the two pilots is a ripoff. I would gladly pay 1% more on my ticket and have all of that go to the better quality pilots and crew. Airlines should be required to show what portion of their revenue goes where. Maybe also add a tip jar for the crew.
SyneRyder 13y ago
"carrying 10x the people and making the airline a lot more money" Are they? I remember reading that the Qantas international routes were unprofitable for the company, and I've been on long haul Singapore Airlines flights where everyone had an entire row to themselves. (Of course, some routes are vastly more profitable than others.)
- jonknee 13y ago
  Obviously it depends on the route (ideally one that has no competition and a lot of passengers), but you definitely have more room for profit when carrying 500 people. I've been on a fair share of empty commuter flights as well, you know they're losing money even just counting fuel costs.
- yardie 13y ago
  For BA the international and cargo flights subsidize everything else in the company. European flights are losing out to LCCs, rail, and bus. If Qantas is losing money on their international fleet someone is embezzling a shitload of money. Qantas rules Australian airports. Qantas is in half a dozen codeshare agreements (typically an airline is in one, Oneworld, Skyteam, etc.) because they can do whatever they want.
  - SyneRyder 13y ago
    That could be, Moodys recently downgraded Qantas stock to Junk status, and Qantas have been seeking a government bailout: http://www.smh.com.au/business/moodys-cuts-qantas-credit-rating-by-two-notches-to-junk-status-20140109-30kj0.html http://www.smh.com.au/business/moodys-cuts-qantas-credit-rat... And Qantas was losing $262 Million per year on international, which they've apparently narrowed to a $91 Million annual loss by dropping half of their international routes. For Qantas it was the domestic routes that were subsidizing international: http://skift.com/2013/02/22/qantas-profits-double-after-aussie-airline-drops-half-of-its-international-routes/ http://skift.com/2013/02/22/qantas-profits-double-after-auss...

runako 13y ago

>> buy in to this crazy scheme under promise that they will be making hundreds of thousands of dollars salary ten or twenty years down the road. FWIW, that's how most careers work: juniors make small money, seniors make much more. Tech is an outlier in that new grads often make a substantial fraction of the terminal salary for the field. (Which makes some sense given the rampant ageism in hiring.)

TheAnimus 13y ago
But if you study now, you are going to have $150k of debt just for your full license and maybe one larger type rating. Any jet time and that number will rise very quickly. I hear from my US pilot friends, that they also must have a college education too. Compare that to the UK, where training costs more, but is often paid by the company in exchange for 5 years, the wages are a lot higher. In the US, my instructor was charging pretty much minimum wage, he needed the hours, he was a very good instructor. In the UK I've had terrible instructors who are still demanding $80 per hour. (And some great retired old timers who do it for free, the love of the antique planes!) The US is very lucky, there is a massive military that pumps out trained pilots, some even with ATP, I think this is one of the reasons why they have been able to pay so little. However the rest of the world pays more.
JanezStupar 13y ago
Sure at a glance... But once you start looking into it... The proportions are completely insane for the pilots.