5 ms·

Yes, There’s a Pilot Shortage: Salaries Start at $21,000

45 points by roye 13y ago

mnw21cam 13y ago
My brother would love to hear this news (not). He's just been hired as a pilot. Not, luckily, in the US. Surely the cost of running a plane is vastly larger than the cost of a pilot's salary?
- JanezStupar 13y ago
  Junior pilot salaries are not the problem. Senior pilot salaries are. Basically unions are running a ponzi scheme, where they get juniors to buy in to this crazy scheme under promise that they will be making hundreds of thousands of dollars salary ten or twenty years down the road. I think that at this time the relationship between senior and junior pilots is pretty representative of how boomers are shafting the younger generations.
  - jonknee 13y ago
    > Junior pilot salaries are not the problem. Senior pilot salaries are. Are they though? Senior pilots fly much larger aircraft on much longer routes. The $21k pilot mentioned in the article is flying a 50-seat commuter on low-profit routes. A senior pilot for an international airline (the type that do make $200k) is flying a wide body that seats 350-500 people and flies over oceans. They're making 10x, but also flying equipment that costs 10x, carrying 10x the people and making the airline a lot more money. Also, senior pilots by definition have a limited amount of time left in their career (thanks to mandatory retirement age), the big paychecks don't last too many years.
    - Robin_Message 13y ago
      The equipment is better for making the airline money, but doesn't sound especially more difficult to operate, certainly not 10x as difficult. Does working on a product that produces 10x the revenue justify paying ten times as much? Union seniority rules (where pay increases with time of employment, and the cushiest jobs go to the most "senior") are one of the worse parts of unions IMHO, and discredit what should be a positive force for more reasonable, equitable workplaces. > Also, senior pilots by definition have a limited amount of time left in their career (thanks to mandatory retirement age), the big paychecks don't last too many years. I'm guessing large pensions for retired senior pilots are also part of the problem.
      - davedx 13y ago
        > Does working on a product that produces 10x the revenue justify paying ten times as much? But how else do you quantify salaries in business?
        michaelt 13y ago
        I pay the same for a pencil whether I use it to write a bestselling novel or to doodle in boring lectures.
      - raverbashing 13y ago
        It's not only about "difficulty of operating the equipment" which, yes, is not that much complicated It's experience, especially in: - Dealing with foreign ATC - Meteorological conditions - Emergency situations
        mnw21cam 13y ago
        It's about responsibility. The captain of an airplane is responsible for the lives of everyone aboard, and for the equipment itself. It is a criminal offense to disobey an order given by the captain.
      - jonknee 13y ago
        > Union seniority rules (where pay increases with time of employment, and the cushiest jobs go to the most "senior") are one of the worse parts of unions IMHO, and discredit what should be a positive force for more reasonable, equitable workplaces. Opposed to non-union workplaces where the inexperienced workers make the most money? Experience always pays more. I understand what you're getting at where it's not fair that a young superstar makes less than an old know-nothing, but in general more years of experience does equal more value. I'd want the heart surgeon who has 25+ years of experience more than I'd want the kid just off the residency. I'm sure the younger surgeon has the chops, but if the one in a million thing happens during my surgery I want the experienced surgeon. Pilots are very similar.
        13y ago
    - kashkhan 13y ago
      $21k works out to $10 per hour assuming the pilot works 2100 hours a year. Right now I am hiring commercial pilots at $25 per hour though not for 8 hours a day, like commuter pilots. An A380 burns 4000 gallons of jet fuel per hour which converts to roughly $24000 per hour. Even if you paid the pilots $100 each and had four of them, (main plus relief), the pilots represent a tiny sliver of the op cost. The smallest commuter planes cost about $2k per hour total. so paying $20 out of that for the two pilots is a ripoff. I would gladly pay 1% more on my ticket and have all of that go to the better quality pilots and crew. Airlines should be required to show what portion of their revenue goes where. Maybe also add a tip jar for the crew.
    - SyneRyder 13y ago
      "carrying 10x the people and making the airline a lot more money" Are they? I remember reading that the Qantas international routes were unprofitable for the company, and I've been on long haul Singapore Airlines flights where everyone had an entire row to themselves. (Of course, some routes are vastly more profitable than others.)
      - jonknee 13y ago
        Obviously it depends on the route (ideally one that has no competition and a lot of passengers), but you definitely have more room for profit when carrying 500 people. I've been on a fair share of empty commuter flights as well, you know they're losing money even just counting fuel costs.
      - yardie 13y ago
        For BA the international and cargo flights subsidize everything else in the company. European flights are losing out to LCCs, rail, and bus. If Qantas is losing money on their international fleet someone is embezzling a shitload of money. Qantas rules Australian airports. Qantas is in half a dozen codeshare agreements (typically an airline is in one, Oneworld, Skyteam, etc.) because they can do whatever they want.
        SyneRyder 13y ago
        That could be, Moodys recently downgraded Qantas stock to Junk status, and Qantas have been seeking a government bailout: http://www.smh.com.au/business/moodys-cuts-qantas-credit-rating-by-two-notches-to-junk-status-20140109-30kj0.html http://www.smh.com.au/business/moodys-cuts-qantas-credit-rat... And Qantas was losing $262 Million per year on international, which they've apparently narrowed to a $91 Million annual loss by dropping half of their international routes. For Qantas it was the domestic routes that were subsidizing international: http://skift.com/2013/02/22/qantas-profits-double-after-aussie-airline-drops-half-of-its-international-routes/ http://skift.com/2013/02/22/qantas-profits-double-after-auss...
  - runako 13y ago
    >> buy in to this crazy scheme under promise that they will be making hundreds of thousands of dollars salary ten or twenty years down the road. FWIW, that's how most careers work: juniors make small money, seniors make much more. Tech is an outlier in that new grads often make a substantial fraction of the terminal salary for the field. (Which makes some sense given the rampant ageism in hiring.)
    - TheAnimus 13y ago
      But if you study now, you are going to have $150k of debt just for your full license and maybe one larger type rating. Any jet time and that number will rise very quickly. I hear from my US pilot friends, that they also must have a college education too. Compare that to the UK, where training costs more, but is often paid by the company in exchange for 5 years, the wages are a lot higher. In the US, my instructor was charging pretty much minimum wage, he needed the hours, he was a very good instructor. In the UK I've had terrible instructors who are still demanding $80 per hour. (And some great retired old timers who do it for free, the love of the antique planes!) The US is very lucky, there is a massive military that pumps out trained pilots, some even with ATP, I think this is one of the reasons why they have been able to pay so little. However the rest of the world pays more.
    - JanezStupar 13y ago
      Sure at a glance... But once you start looking into it... The proportions are completely insane for the pilots.
philipn 13y ago
Here's a great summary of what's involved by askcaptainscott on YouTube: Can I be an airline pilot if I start training in my 30s? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJk9Skxyi84 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJk9Skxyi84 I'm far from an expert on air travel, but my understanding is that the regional airlines have become the backbone of budget US travel, and have a huge role in this salary gap (between regionals and non-regionals). Frontline did a great piece on the regional airlines, focusing on safety problems called "Flying Cheap" - http://video.pbs.org/video/1412744270/ http://video.pbs.org/video/1412744270/
- kyrra 13y ago
  From my understanding.... if you go back 20+ years, pilots used to be paid a lot more. Which lead to a lot of people going for their commercial pilots license and flooding the market. This let the major airlines drop the salary of starting pilots. Looks like the salary games drove away enough people and now the problem has swung the other way.
bluedino 13y ago
Is it possible for a 22-year old kid to be a pilot without going to the military in the US? I would imagine Delta doesn't train people off the streets. In that case, wouldn't it be worth just sticking around in the armed forces, making more than $21k/yr and getting all the benefits that go along with it?
- smartistone 13y ago
  but in the armed forces you have a higher probability of dying
- jonknee 13y ago
  You can certainly decide to go to flight school yourself. As mentioned in the article though, it's not cheap. The armed forces may or may not be worth it--having to kill people is a deal breaker for a lot of people.
  - JonFish85 13y ago
    Wow, between you & Trufa, one would think that joining the military necessarily means killing people. Yes, it happens. But let's not pretend that's the only thing that happens. Maybe air-dropping food to refugees & people in distress[1]. Airlifting people out of bad situations[2]. There are plenty of examples. Most of the people I've known and worked with in the military never had to kill anyone. [1] http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467841/humanitarian-assistance-mission-provides-help-to-haiti.aspx http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/4678... [2] http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/466762/bagram-pilots-save-60-soldiers-during-convoy-ambush.aspx http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/4667...
    - jonknee 13y ago
      You may never kill anyone, but you have to sign up swearing that you will kill someone if asked to. It's the entire point of the armed forces. That is a deal breaker for many people (myself included). Similarly, I would never work for a military contractor or on a weapons project. My work product isn't going to kill or injure anyone. Your friends may never have killed anyone directly, but they have certainly assisted in it. For every supply trip to Haiti, there are thousands of supply trips moving weapons and soldiers around the world.
JoeAltmaier 13y ago
That's the median for a bus driver
vampirechicken 13y ago
Is there no H1B program for regional airline pilots? Becuase it works wonderfully in Corporate IT.
bifftannen 13y ago
Pilots should really never be skimped on.
shultays 13y ago
I thought $21k were monthly.
S_A_P 13y ago
I think this is pretty common for any industry. Experience gains salary. The fact that it is a flying machine doesn't really change that much. It seems that the regionals are serving as a training pool for the larger carriers to draw from. I wouldnt call that a ponzi scheme, but unions can create unnatural salary gaps. Is the problem that people feel they are putting their life in the hands of someone paid 21k? That happens with any form mass transit.
- jonknee 13y ago
  The uncommon part is the very expensive training required before landing that $21k gig.
al2o3cr 13y ago
For a "business" publication, Businessweek seems to have dropped the ball on basic economics here: there's fewer pilots available to work at the wages regionals want to pay, but that's not a "shortage", that's the market expressing a preference for higher pay. See also the yoyos whining about a "skilled-worker shortage" when then actually mean "we can't hire experienced machinists for $10/hr!".
- ozi 13y ago
  The problem is that a lot of the young workforce has been disillusioned and waning since 08/09. Most of these people were already aware that being a commercial pilot isn't as glamorous of a job as people think; add in shit pay and job instability and you'd have to be crazy to stick with it. My friend graduated from LA Tech in 08 with a degree in professional aviation with the goal of working for ATC or a commercial airline. He initially got a job as a flight instructor making ~$25/hour and was lucky to get more than 20 hours per week. Then the bottom fell out with the economy, massive job cuts across the board at airlines, and he looked for a better job because nobody would be hiring for a long time, everything is seniority based, and he wasn't going to pay out of pocket to keep his flight hours up for a few years. Now he's an accountant.
- bostonpete 13y ago
  Maybe I'm missing something -- isn't this the point of the the article? Even the title seems to explicitly tie the shortage to the low pay. Maybe you're just arguing against the term "shortage" and saying there's never a shortage of labor supply in any field, just a shortage of people willing to do the work at what's considered the going rate? Can't we just stipulate that this is what a shortage of <profession-here> means?
- yardie 13y ago
  It's not economics its rational pilots being rational. The FAA has raised the hours a flight officer needs to operate a commerical plane. This has created a double hump in the D/S curve. Low hour pilots are worthless and high hour pilots cost too much. So you raise salaries right? High hour pilots don't want to leave their nice, stable job (with benefits!) to work for perpetually bankrupt regional carrier. They might be able to get the occasional burnout or fired with cause pilot but not in any good quantity.
Eye_of_Mordor 13y ago
How much do they earn in China? Wouldn't be at all surprised that they have a ton of experienced pilots, but earning more than $21,000. Is this some kind of 'trickle up effect' where cutting salaries at the bottom has squeezed those in the middle?
- markdown 13y ago
  I don't know what the locals earn, but AFAIK expat jet pilots in China can earn between $90k and $200k
Aardwolf 13y ago
If there is a shortage, are the mechanisms of capitalism not supposed to make the salaries higher?
- cowsandmilk 13y ago
  not necessarily, the other microeconomic option is just to not have flights... salary goes up -> higher ticket prices -> less customers $21,000 and less flights may be the actual optimum
ulfw 13y ago
No wonder I don't feel safe flying those airlines. Not only are many of their jets 20+ years old, but I also wouldn't feel safe flying with someone willing to work for 21K in a job that literally has the lives of people in their hands.
- a3n 13y ago
  Would you be an astronaut for free? Lots of people work in jobs so they can do what they love, and money is not primary. Money is not an index into the skill scale.
  - ramblerman 13y ago
    Perhaps but a one time shot in space isn't close to the same as trucking the same route day in day out.
    - ulfw 13y ago
      Couldn't have said it better myself. Life of a regional airline pilot is hard and not glamourous. We're not talking flying an A380 to Hong Kong for a fun shopping trip over the weekend here. We're talking flying a 50 seater up to 10 trips a day between small towns and a hub, which is so shitty paid that you can't afford an apartment for yourself to sleep in. http://www.airfarewatchdog.com/blog/10394117/confessions-of-a-regional-jet-pilot/ http://www.airfarewatchdog.com/blog/10394117/confessions-of-...
robodale 13y ago
I have a friend who was a personal pilot. He makes more now as a mid-western Radio DJ...with better hours.
- yardie 13y ago
  Personal pilot? As in PPL? PPLs aren't allowed to work as pilots.
  - mschuster91 13y ago
    IIRC you're allowed to do stuff like towing ad banners or tourist flyovers in Cessnas with a PPL (at least it used to be so in Germany).
roye 13y ago
OP here. So is this a grad student/resident/apprentice type arrangement? If so, seems like one of the less worthwhile ones.
jessaustin 13y ago
The airlines need to investigate the H-1B visa. [shudder]
PaulRobinson 13y ago
I know quite a few pilots who have dropped £70k+ on getting licensed up. Some barely get £25k/year. Others make £150k-£200k/year. It really depends on how good you are and who you know.
- tommorris 13y ago
  To be fair, the same can be said about many degrees these days. With the £9,000 a year tuition fees, it's easy to rack up £50k in student debt (£9k fees + £5-7k a year in living expenses) to get a three-year UK degree.
jedc 13y ago
It can be quite a bit different in Europe. In the US, you get to be an airline pilot either via a) military or b) years of hard graft and low-pay regional carriers. Compare this to a recent "Future Pilot" program that British Airways runs: http://www.britishairways.com/careers/futurepilot/futurepilot_home.shtml http://www.britishairways.com/careers/futurepilot/futurepilo... They need pilots, and even help fund a guaranteed loan for applicants that don't have the direct cash for the training fees. And from what I understand the salaries aren't that bad once you're flying for them.
nobullet 13y ago
OMG. 21000$/year? Are your kidding?! Welcome to the former USSR: civil aviation pilot: about 200,000 - 300,000 russian rubles monthly (5700 - 8500 $ / monthly). Aeroflot pays even more. (http://otvet.mail.ru/question/89104947/ http://otvet.mail.ru/question/89104947/). 68000-102000$ yearly. And that's after taxes. Dictatorship Belarus: 7000-8000 / monthly (84000-96000$ yearly). After taxes. (http://charter97.org/ru/news/2011/12/6/45448/ http://charter97.org/ru/news/2011/12/6/45448/)

45 points by roye 13y ago

My brother would love to hear this news (not). He's just been hired as a pilot. Not, luckily, in the US. Surely the cost of running a plane is vastly larger than the cost of a pilot's salary?

JanezStupar 13y ago
Junior pilot salaries are not the problem. Senior pilot salaries are. Basically unions are running a ponzi scheme, where they get juniors to buy in to this crazy scheme under promise that they will be making hundreds of thousands of dollars salary ten or twenty years down the road. I think that at this time the relationship between senior and junior pilots is pretty representative of how boomers are shafting the younger generations.
- jonknee 13y ago
  > Junior pilot salaries are not the problem. Senior pilot salaries are. Are they though? Senior pilots fly much larger aircraft on much longer routes. The $21k pilot mentioned in the article is flying a 50-seat commuter on low-profit routes. A senior pilot for an international airline (the type that do make $200k) is flying a wide body that seats 350-500 people and flies over oceans. They're making 10x, but also flying equipment that costs 10x, carrying 10x the people and making the airline a lot more money. Also, senior pilots by definition have a limited amount of time left in their career (thanks to mandatory retirement age), the big paychecks don't last too many years.
  - Robin_Message 13y ago
    The equipment is better for making the airline money, but doesn't sound especially more difficult to operate, certainly not 10x as difficult. Does working on a product that produces 10x the revenue justify paying ten times as much? Union seniority rules (where pay increases with time of employment, and the cushiest jobs go to the most "senior") are one of the worse parts of unions IMHO, and discredit what should be a positive force for more reasonable, equitable workplaces. > Also, senior pilots by definition have a limited amount of time left in their career (thanks to mandatory retirement age), the big paychecks don't last too many years. I'm guessing large pensions for retired senior pilots are also part of the problem.
    - davedx 13y ago
      > Does working on a product that produces 10x the revenue justify paying ten times as much? But how else do you quantify salaries in business?
      - michaelt 13y ago
        I pay the same for a pencil whether I use it to write a bestselling novel or to doodle in boring lectures.
    - raverbashing 13y ago
      It's not only about "difficulty of operating the equipment" which, yes, is not that much complicated It's experience, especially in: - Dealing with foreign ATC - Meteorological conditions - Emergency situations
      - mnw21cam 13y ago
        It's about responsibility. The captain of an airplane is responsible for the lives of everyone aboard, and for the equipment itself. It is a criminal offense to disobey an order given by the captain.
    - jonknee 13y ago
      > Union seniority rules (where pay increases with time of employment, and the cushiest jobs go to the most "senior") are one of the worse parts of unions IMHO, and discredit what should be a positive force for more reasonable, equitable workplaces. Opposed to non-union workplaces where the inexperienced workers make the most money? Experience always pays more. I understand what you're getting at where it's not fair that a young superstar makes less than an old know-nothing, but in general more years of experience does equal more value. I'd want the heart surgeon who has 25+ years of experience more than I'd want the kid just off the residency. I'm sure the younger surgeon has the chops, but if the one in a million thing happens during my surgery I want the experienced surgeon. Pilots are very similar.
      - 13y ago
  - kashkhan 13y ago
    $21k works out to $10 per hour assuming the pilot works 2100 hours a year. Right now I am hiring commercial pilots at $25 per hour though not for 8 hours a day, like commuter pilots. An A380 burns 4000 gallons of jet fuel per hour which converts to roughly $24000 per hour. Even if you paid the pilots $100 each and had four of them, (main plus relief), the pilots represent a tiny sliver of the op cost. The smallest commuter planes cost about $2k per hour total. so paying $20 out of that for the two pilots is a ripoff. I would gladly pay 1% more on my ticket and have all of that go to the better quality pilots and crew. Airlines should be required to show what portion of their revenue goes where. Maybe also add a tip jar for the crew.
  - SyneRyder 13y ago
    "carrying 10x the people and making the airline a lot more money" Are they? I remember reading that the Qantas international routes were unprofitable for the company, and I've been on long haul Singapore Airlines flights where everyone had an entire row to themselves. (Of course, some routes are vastly more profitable than others.)
    - jonknee 13y ago
      Obviously it depends on the route (ideally one that has no competition and a lot of passengers), but you definitely have more room for profit when carrying 500 people. I've been on a fair share of empty commuter flights as well, you know they're losing money even just counting fuel costs.
    - yardie 13y ago
      For BA the international and cargo flights subsidize everything else in the company. European flights are losing out to LCCs, rail, and bus. If Qantas is losing money on their international fleet someone is embezzling a shitload of money. Qantas rules Australian airports. Qantas is in half a dozen codeshare agreements (typically an airline is in one, Oneworld, Skyteam, etc.) because they can do whatever they want.
      - SyneRyder 13y ago
        That could be, Moodys recently downgraded Qantas stock to Junk status, and Qantas have been seeking a government bailout: http://www.smh.com.au/business/moodys-cuts-qantas-credit-rating-by-two-notches-to-junk-status-20140109-30kj0.html http://www.smh.com.au/business/moodys-cuts-qantas-credit-rat... And Qantas was losing $262 Million per year on international, which they've apparently narrowed to a $91 Million annual loss by dropping half of their international routes. For Qantas it was the domestic routes that were subsidizing international: http://skift.com/2013/02/22/qantas-profits-double-after-aussie-airline-drops-half-of-its-international-routes/ http://skift.com/2013/02/22/qantas-profits-double-after-auss...
- runako 13y ago
  >> buy in to this crazy scheme under promise that they will be making hundreds of thousands of dollars salary ten or twenty years down the road. FWIW, that's how most careers work: juniors make small money, seniors make much more. Tech is an outlier in that new grads often make a substantial fraction of the terminal salary for the field. (Which makes some sense given the rampant ageism in hiring.)
  - TheAnimus 13y ago
    But if you study now, you are going to have $150k of debt just for your full license and maybe one larger type rating. Any jet time and that number will rise very quickly. I hear from my US pilot friends, that they also must have a college education too. Compare that to the UK, where training costs more, but is often paid by the company in exchange for 5 years, the wages are a lot higher. In the US, my instructor was charging pretty much minimum wage, he needed the hours, he was a very good instructor. In the UK I've had terrible instructors who are still demanding $80 per hour. (And some great retired old timers who do it for free, the love of the antique planes!) The US is very lucky, there is a massive military that pumps out trained pilots, some even with ATP, I think this is one of the reasons why they have been able to pay so little. However the rest of the world pays more.
  - JanezStupar 13y ago
    Sure at a glance... But once you start looking into it... The proportions are completely insane for the pilots.

philipn 13y ago

Here's a great summary of what's involved by askcaptainscott on YouTube: Can I be an airline pilot if I start training in my 30s? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJk9Skxyi84 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WJk9Skxyi84 I'm far from an expert on air travel, but my understanding is that the regional airlines have become the backbone of budget US travel, and have a huge role in this salary gap (between regionals and non-regionals). Frontline did a great piece on the regional airlines, focusing on safety problems called "Flying Cheap" - http://video.pbs.org/video/1412744270/ http://video.pbs.org/video/1412744270/

kyrra 13y ago
From my understanding.... if you go back 20+ years, pilots used to be paid a lot more. Which lead to a lot of people going for their commercial pilots license and flooding the market. This let the major airlines drop the salary of starting pilots. Looks like the salary games drove away enough people and now the problem has swung the other way.

bluedino 13y ago

Is it possible for a 22-year old kid to be a pilot without going to the military in the US? I would imagine Delta doesn't train people off the streets. In that case, wouldn't it be worth just sticking around in the armed forces, making more than $21k/yr and getting all the benefits that go along with it?

smartistone 13y ago
but in the armed forces you have a higher probability of dying
jonknee 13y ago
You can certainly decide to go to flight school yourself. As mentioned in the article though, it's not cheap. The armed forces may or may not be worth it--having to kill people is a deal breaker for a lot of people.
- JonFish85 13y ago
  Wow, between you & Trufa, one would think that joining the military necessarily means killing people. Yes, it happens. But let's not pretend that's the only thing that happens. Maybe air-dropping food to refugees & people in distress[1]. Airlifting people out of bad situations[2]. There are plenty of examples. Most of the people I've known and worked with in the military never had to kill anyone. [1] http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/467841/humanitarian-assistance-mission-provides-help-to-haiti.aspx http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/4678... [2] http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/466762/bagram-pilots-save-60-soldiers-during-convoy-ambush.aspx http://www.af.mil/News/ArticleDisplay/tabid/223/Article/4667...
  - jonknee 13y ago
    You may never kill anyone, but you have to sign up swearing that you will kill someone if asked to. It's the entire point of the armed forces. That is a deal breaker for many people (myself included). Similarly, I would never work for a military contractor or on a weapons project. My work product isn't going to kill or injure anyone. Your friends may never have killed anyone directly, but they have certainly assisted in it. For every supply trip to Haiti, there are thousands of supply trips moving weapons and soldiers around the world.

JoeAltmaier 13y ago

That's the median for a bus driver

vampirechicken 13y ago

Is there no H1B program for regional airline pilots? Becuase it works wonderfully in Corporate IT.

bifftannen 13y ago

Pilots should really never be skimped on.

shultays 13y ago

I thought $21k were monthly.

S_A_P 13y ago

I think this is pretty common for any industry. Experience gains salary. The fact that it is a flying machine doesn't really change that much. It seems that the regionals are serving as a training pool for the larger carriers to draw from. I wouldnt call that a ponzi scheme, but unions can create unnatural salary gaps. Is the problem that people feel they are putting their life in the hands of someone paid 21k? That happens with any form mass transit.

jonknee 13y ago
The uncommon part is the very expensive training required before landing that $21k gig.

al2o3cr 13y ago

For a "business" publication, Businessweek seems to have dropped the ball on basic economics here: there's fewer pilots available to work at the wages regionals want to pay, but that's not a "shortage", that's the market expressing a preference for higher pay. See also the yoyos whining about a "skilled-worker shortage" when then actually mean "we can't hire experienced machinists for $10/hr!".

ozi 13y ago
The problem is that a lot of the young workforce has been disillusioned and waning since 08/09. Most of these people were already aware that being a commercial pilot isn't as glamorous of a job as people think; add in shit pay and job instability and you'd have to be crazy to stick with it. My friend graduated from LA Tech in 08 with a degree in professional aviation with the goal of working for ATC or a commercial airline. He initially got a job as a flight instructor making ~$25/hour and was lucky to get more than 20 hours per week. Then the bottom fell out with the economy, massive job cuts across the board at airlines, and he looked for a better job because nobody would be hiring for a long time, everything is seniority based, and he wasn't going to pay out of pocket to keep his flight hours up for a few years. Now he's an accountant.
bostonpete 13y ago
Maybe I'm missing something -- isn't this the point of the the article? Even the title seems to explicitly tie the shortage to the low pay. Maybe you're just arguing against the term "shortage" and saying there's never a shortage of labor supply in any field, just a shortage of people willing to do the work at what's considered the going rate? Can't we just stipulate that this is what a shortage of <profession-here> means?
yardie 13y ago
It's not economics its rational pilots being rational. The FAA has raised the hours a flight officer needs to operate a commerical plane. This has created a double hump in the D/S curve. Low hour pilots are worthless and high hour pilots cost too much. So you raise salaries right? High hour pilots don't want to leave their nice, stable job (with benefits!) to work for perpetually bankrupt regional carrier. They might be able to get the occasional burnout or fired with cause pilot but not in any good quantity.

Eye_of_Mordor 13y ago

How much do they earn in China? Wouldn't be at all surprised that they have a ton of experienced pilots, but earning more than $21,000. Is this some kind of 'trickle up effect' where cutting salaries at the bottom has squeezed those in the middle?

markdown 13y ago
I don't know what the locals earn, but AFAIK expat jet pilots in China can earn between $90k and $200k

Aardwolf 13y ago

If there is a shortage, are the mechanisms of capitalism not supposed to make the salaries higher?

cowsandmilk 13y ago
not necessarily, the other microeconomic option is just to not have flights... salary goes up -> higher ticket prices -> less customers $21,000 and less flights may be the actual optimum

ulfw 13y ago

No wonder I don't feel safe flying those airlines. Not only are many of their jets 20+ years old, but I also wouldn't feel safe flying with someone willing to work for 21K in a job that literally has the lives of people in their hands.

a3n 13y ago
Would you be an astronaut for free? Lots of people work in jobs so they can do what they love, and money is not primary. Money is not an index into the skill scale.
- ramblerman 13y ago
  Perhaps but a one time shot in space isn't close to the same as trucking the same route day in day out.
  - ulfw 13y ago
    Couldn't have said it better myself. Life of a regional airline pilot is hard and not glamourous. We're not talking flying an A380 to Hong Kong for a fun shopping trip over the weekend here. We're talking flying a 50 seater up to 10 trips a day between small towns and a hub, which is so shitty paid that you can't afford an apartment for yourself to sleep in. http://www.airfarewatchdog.com/blog/10394117/confessions-of-a-regional-jet-pilot/ http://www.airfarewatchdog.com/blog/10394117/confessions-of-...

robodale 13y ago

I have a friend who was a personal pilot. He makes more now as a mid-western Radio DJ...with better hours.

yardie 13y ago
Personal pilot? As in PPL? PPLs aren't allowed to work as pilots.
- mschuster91 13y ago
  IIRC you're allowed to do stuff like towing ad banners or tourist flyovers in Cessnas with a PPL (at least it used to be so in Germany).

roye 13y ago

OP here. So is this a grad student/resident/apprentice type arrangement? If so, seems like one of the less worthwhile ones.

jessaustin 13y ago

The airlines need to investigate the H-1B visa. [shudder]

PaulRobinson 13y ago

I know quite a few pilots who have dropped £70k+ on getting licensed up. Some barely get £25k/year. Others make £150k-£200k/year. It really depends on how good you are and who you know.

tommorris 13y ago
To be fair, the same can be said about many degrees these days. With the £9,000 a year tuition fees, it's easy to rack up £50k in student debt (£9k fees + £5-7k a year in living expenses) to get a three-year UK degree.

jedc 13y ago

It can be quite a bit different in Europe. In the US, you get to be an airline pilot either via a) military or b) years of hard graft and low-pay regional carriers. Compare this to a recent "Future Pilot" program that British Airways runs: http://www.britishairways.com/careers/futurepilot/futurepilot_home.shtml http://www.britishairways.com/careers/futurepilot/futurepilo... They need pilots, and even help fund a guaranteed loan for applicants that don't have the direct cash for the training fees. And from what I understand the salaries aren't that bad once you're flying for them.

nobullet 13y ago

OMG. 21000$/year? Are your kidding?! Welcome to the former USSR: civil aviation pilot: about 200,000 - 300,000 russian rubles monthly (5700 - 8500 $ / monthly). Aeroflot pays even more. (http://otvet.mail.ru/question/89104947/ http://otvet.mail.ru/question/89104947/). 68000-102000$ yearly. And that's after taxes. Dictatorship Belarus: 7000-8000 / monthly (84000-96000$ yearly). After taxes. (http://charter97.org/ru/news/2011/12/6/45448/ http://charter97.org/ru/news/2011/12/6/45448/)