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According to what? You assert that the cause is "still somewhat mysterious" (you mean completely?) in the same sentence you claim the cause is biological. That'

According to what? You assert that the cause is "still somewhat mysterious" (you mean completely?) in the same sentence you claim the cause is biological. That's pretty contradictory.

mikeash 13y ago
No it's not. You can have an idea of the general area where the cause lies without knowing precisely what it is. For example, there are clear genetic factors in mental illness, which can be seen in the same way that genetic factors for any disease are studies. This doesn't tell you which genes cause it, let alone how they cause it, but it still tells you that it's a biological thing.
- dreamdu5t 13y ago
  There are not. There are no conclusive genes or genetic markers for depression. All that is required for someone to be depressed is to self-report as depressed and experiencing those symptoms.
  - mikeash 13y ago
    Just because the specific gene hasn't been identified doesn't mean it isn't known to have genetic factors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder#Causes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder#Cause... "In addition, a Swedish study estimated the heritability of depression—the degree to which individual differences in occurrence are associated with genetic differences—to be around 40% for women and 30% for men...." You seem to think that we must either know the exact cause, or we know nothing about the cause. That is simply not true.
    - dreamdu5t 13y ago
      No, I think psychology has medicalized a range of normal emotions and behaviors, like sadness and anger for example, and that there is not necessarily any such disease as depression. I know that's not PC and some may find that shocking, but it's pretty plausible when you look at the history of psychology. Since I've already crossed the PC/shocking line... It's amazing the similarities between SSRI's and lobotomy. The mechanism of action isn't fully understood, yet some people are improved, and some people are made worse, and everyone has side effects. It was considered a breakthrough at first, then followed by controversy as people began to question the mechanism of action, the ethics of forced surgery (forced drugging) etc.
      - mikeash 13y ago
        I'm not shocked. It's a sadly common opinion. I do think you're full of shit, though. Depression is completely different from things like sadness and anger. There is a superficial outward resemblance, but that is all. They are conflated because people who have never experienced it try to slot it into what they know, so they decide that depression is just the sadness they know, but stronger. It's not. But no, I'm sure that saying depressed people are just sad and have control over their own feelings and that Prozac is no better than a lobotomy is going to totally help people.
        gruseom 13y ago
        have control over their own feelings and that Prozac is no better than a lobotomy dreamdu5t said neither of those things, and there's no need to be rude.
        mikeash 13y ago
        No, he didn't outright say them, he just heavily implied them. Note that the "control over their own feelings" bit comes from a different thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7229432 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7229432 What's rude is going around telling people that depression is made up and comparing SSRIs to lobotomies. Getting a bit snippy when faced with such an affront is only natural.

According to what? You assert that the cause is "still somewhat mysterious" (you mean completely?) in the same sentence you claim the cause is biological. That's pretty contradictory.

mikeash 13y ago

No it's not. You can have an idea of the general area where the cause lies without knowing precisely what it is. For example, there are clear genetic factors in mental illness, which can be seen in the same way that genetic factors for any disease are studies. This doesn't tell you which genes cause it, let alone how they cause it, but it still tells you that it's a biological thing.

dreamdu5t 13y ago
There are not. There are no conclusive genes or genetic markers for depression. All that is required for someone to be depressed is to self-report as depressed and experiencing those symptoms.
- mikeash 13y ago
  Just because the specific gene hasn't been identified doesn't mean it isn't known to have genetic factors: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder#Causes http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_depressive_disorder#Cause... "In addition, a Swedish study estimated the heritability of depression—the degree to which individual differences in occurrence are associated with genetic differences—to be around 40% for women and 30% for men...." You seem to think that we must either know the exact cause, or we know nothing about the cause. That is simply not true.
  - dreamdu5t 13y ago
    No, I think psychology has medicalized a range of normal emotions and behaviors, like sadness and anger for example, and that there is not necessarily any such disease as depression. I know that's not PC and some may find that shocking, but it's pretty plausible when you look at the history of psychology. Since I've already crossed the PC/shocking line... It's amazing the similarities between SSRI's and lobotomy. The mechanism of action isn't fully understood, yet some people are improved, and some people are made worse, and everyone has side effects. It was considered a breakthrough at first, then followed by controversy as people began to question the mechanism of action, the ethics of forced surgery (forced drugging) etc.
    - mikeash 13y ago
      I'm not shocked. It's a sadly common opinion. I do think you're full of shit, though. Depression is completely different from things like sadness and anger. There is a superficial outward resemblance, but that is all. They are conflated because people who have never experienced it try to slot it into what they know, so they decide that depression is just the sadness they know, but stronger. It's not. But no, I'm sure that saying depressed people are just sad and have control over their own feelings and that Prozac is no better than a lobotomy is going to totally help people.
      - gruseom 13y ago
        have control over their own feelings and that Prozac is no better than a lobotomy dreamdu5t said neither of those things, and there's no need to be rude.
        mikeash 13y ago
        No, he didn't outright say them, he just heavily implied them. Note that the "control over their own feelings" bit comes from a different thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7229432 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7229432 What's rude is going around telling people that depression is made up and comparing SSRIs to lobotomies. Getting a bit snippy when faced with such an affront is only natural.