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I appreciate the response. So you're telling me there are more public speaking workshops for male developers than female developers? I'm not sure I believe tha

I appreciate the response. So you're telling me there are more public speaking workshops for male developers than female developers? I'm not sure I believe that. I think ALL developers could benefit from this workshop. And that inviting all developers would still provide women the skills they need to become successful public speakers. I agree, this is not a zero sum game, but github just turned it into one. If you are a github employee and now have public speaking skills on your resume as well perhaps as a speech or two at a conference, your career will probably do better than the male github employee without, who, contrary to your claims, is underserved with public speaking workshops and the networking opportunities they will provide.

chc 13y ago
I'm telling you that there is no shortage of events for developers where you can go and see very few if any women at all. Go look at any picture from any local programming meetup if you would like to confirm this. And no, Github did not turn anything into a zero-sum game. And no, male Github employees are not now forbidden from gaining public speaking skills. That is just needlessly dramatic. Take a step back and ask yourself, "Does the landscape I see in the field of software development really look like one where women have a large advantage over me and I need to defend my sex from them?" I posit that the answer is "No, male programmers are doing just fine for themselves and Github is not endangering them in any way through this workshop."
- __pThrow 13y ago
  An interesting question might be what percentage of male developers are public speakers? And what percentage of female developers are public speakers? I am certainly not in a position to make an educated guess, do you want to make any sort of estimate?
  - chc 13y ago
    It's easier to answer if we frame the question a bit differently: What percentage of public speakers are male developers and what percentage of public speakers are female developers? Looking at tech conference schedules, it appears that either female speakers are systematically discriminated against or there just aren't very many of them.
    - __pThrow 13y ago
      So an outreach program for women speakers can't address systematic discrimination -- you have to fix the conferences themselves for that. You can reach out to more women, and invite them to apply, but it is sexist discrimination to offer women only training in public speaking on the basis that a certain group of conferences is under-represented. You would reach the same outcome, more qualified women speakers, if you offer that training to anyone who wants it. Same outcome, but one approach is sexist, and one approach is inclusive of everyone. What you are trying to do is guarantee an outcome. Some ratio of women speakers at conferences that satisfies your requirement. Approaches like that usually lead to sexism and discrimination. A better approach is to a) ensure there is an ample supply of well qualified people for your conferences and then b) encourage conferences to perform better outreach to the kinds of speakers they are seeking. Approaches like that are non-sexist and inclusive. As I said, github, an employer, should not be seen directly giving women, even non-employees, preferential treatment. If they want to donate to a women's group putting on such a workshop, that would be a different matter. Edit to add: chc, we have run out of thread reply. What is HN etiquette on that? I will say I disagree with your reply that somehow women are disadvantaged in public speaking. Having fewer women at conferences is not evidence of any disadvantage that merits a discrimination based remedy. And even if so, such a disadvantage! We're not talking job discrimination, income equality, firing policies, etc., we're talking about public speaking something that applies to very very few people across the IT world. A remedy to that does not require sexist discriminatory approaches.
      - chc 13y ago
        No, it is not sexist. Helping the disadvantaged does not constitute discrimination against the advantaged. By this odd logic, homeless shelters reek of elitism because they don't let people with homes there.
        eplumlee 13y ago
        Your statement begins with the presumption "Men discriminate against women." and flows from there. You and github begin counting, and see high representation in the tech industry by men, and low representation by women (and some minorities). This much is obvious. It's how you proceed from there, and naturally conclude "discrimination" is responsible for this discrepancy is not at all apparent to some of us. From my vantage point, the only exclusionary, discriminatory behaviors and attitudes in the tech industry are directed at men.

chc 13y ago

I'm telling you that there is no shortage of events for developers where you can go and see very few if any women at all. Go look at any picture from any local programming meetup if you would like to confirm this. And no, Github did not turn anything into a zero-sum game. And no, male Github employees are not now forbidden from gaining public speaking skills. That is just needlessly dramatic. Take a step back and ask yourself, "Does the landscape I see in the field of software development really look like one where women have a large advantage over me and I need to defend my sex from them?" I posit that the answer is "No, male programmers are doing just fine for themselves and Github is not endangering them in any way through this workshop."

__pThrow 13y ago
An interesting question might be what percentage of male developers are public speakers? And what percentage of female developers are public speakers? I am certainly not in a position to make an educated guess, do you want to make any sort of estimate?
- chc 13y ago
  It's easier to answer if we frame the question a bit differently: What percentage of public speakers are male developers and what percentage of public speakers are female developers? Looking at tech conference schedules, it appears that either female speakers are systematically discriminated against or there just aren't very many of them.
  - __pThrow 13y ago
    So an outreach program for women speakers can't address systematic discrimination -- you have to fix the conferences themselves for that. You can reach out to more women, and invite them to apply, but it is sexist discrimination to offer women only training in public speaking on the basis that a certain group of conferences is under-represented. You would reach the same outcome, more qualified women speakers, if you offer that training to anyone who wants it. Same outcome, but one approach is sexist, and one approach is inclusive of everyone. What you are trying to do is guarantee an outcome. Some ratio of women speakers at conferences that satisfies your requirement. Approaches like that usually lead to sexism and discrimination. A better approach is to a) ensure there is an ample supply of well qualified people for your conferences and then b) encourage conferences to perform better outreach to the kinds of speakers they are seeking. Approaches like that are non-sexist and inclusive. As I said, github, an employer, should not be seen directly giving women, even non-employees, preferential treatment. If they want to donate to a women's group putting on such a workshop, that would be a different matter. Edit to add: chc, we have run out of thread reply. What is HN etiquette on that? I will say I disagree with your reply that somehow women are disadvantaged in public speaking. Having fewer women at conferences is not evidence of any disadvantage that merits a discrimination based remedy. And even if so, such a disadvantage! We're not talking job discrimination, income equality, firing policies, etc., we're talking about public speaking something that applies to very very few people across the IT world. A remedy to that does not require sexist discriminatory approaches.
    - chc 13y ago
      No, it is not sexist. Helping the disadvantaged does not constitute discrimination against the advantaged. By this odd logic, homeless shelters reek of elitism because they don't let people with homes there.
      - eplumlee 13y ago
        Your statement begins with the presumption "Men discriminate against women." and flows from there. You and github begin counting, and see high representation in the tech industry by men, and low representation by women (and some minorities). This much is obvious. It's how you proceed from there, and naturally conclude "discrimination" is responsible for this discrepancy is not at all apparent to some of us. From my vantage point, the only exclusionary, discriminatory behaviors and attitudes in the tech industry are directed at men.