5 ms·

It's a good thing that all men are naturally confident, adept public speakers already.

bdcravens 13y ago
I don't think this is any different than other forums for learning skills where it's more or less women-only. (such as Rails Girls)
chc 13y ago
It's a good thing nobody said this.
grinich 13y ago
This is the kind of troll comment that really makes me cringe. :/ GitHub is hosting a FREE event to support a group of hackers that are under-represented and discriminated against at conferences. How is this anything but wonderful? Stop heckling. Your sarcasm is laced with entitlement and ignorance. It doesn't help anyone.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  As this event demonstrates, men are discriminated against also. And as the op pointed out, many men(like many women) are bad speakers and lack confidence. It is not wonderful that github excludes them. Note: the values driving this post are a respect for individual rights regardless of gender. What are your values? When you clearly state them you will probably understand the point of disagreement.
  - king_jester 13y ago
    The issue isn't that there are men who aren't good at public speaking too, but rather that speaker slots are still dominated by men and men are more visible in the tech community in general. Github is making an effort to provide a public speaking workshop specifically for women because of this. > Note: the values driving this post are a respect for individual rights regardless of gender. I don't see how individual rights has anything to do with this. Github is not obligated to provide a workshop for every person and Github employees have a right to create a workshop that targets women. Nobody is being prevented from running their own workshop or being forced to attend a workshop.
    - yummyfajitas 13y ago
      If you believe individuals have the right not to be discriminated against based on gender (I'm ambivalent), then this event violates individuals rights. What do you believe? Your first sentence suggests some value system based on group rights, individuals are irrelevant. Could you state your values more carefully? (Im especially curious how you determine which groups to give rights to.) As I said, I suspect you will recognize the points of disagreement when you do.
      - king_jester 13y ago
        > If you believe individuals have the right not to be discriminated against based on gender (I'm ambivalent), then this event violates individuals rights. What do you believe? This workshop in no way harms men as the dominant group in tech and tech public speaking events. Offering a workshop that targets for a type of person who is underrepresented and faces unique challenges for not being in the majority group doesn't constitute sexual discrimination. The workshop is discriminating in the sense that it selects for a particular kind of person, but this is different from what we mean by sexism and sexual discrimination. > Your first sentence suggests some value system based on group rights, individuals are irrelevant. Could you state your values more carefully? (Im especially curious how you determine which groups to give rights to.) As I said, I suspect you will recognize the points of disagreement when you do. The question would be are your individual rights being violated when Github hosts a workshop targeted for women? The answer is clearly no. Private individuals and groups have a right to form voluntary workshops that have criteria for entry. It would be silly to say that individuals who face unique problems from not being a part of the dominant culture can't form groups or hold events that address their specific problems.
        yummyfajitas 13y ago
        Offering a workshop that targets for a type of person who is underrepresented and faces unique challenges for not being in the majority group doesn't constitute sexual discrimination Of course it's sex discrimination. Sex discrimination is when a function satisfies the equation: allowEntry(x.copy(gender=Female)) != allowEntry(x.copy(gender=Male)) for some x. This workshop certainly seems to qualify. If you want to argue that sexual discrimination is acceptable under some circumstances, go ahead - but as I said before, please be explicit about what your underlying values are. It'll help us all understand why we disagree. Private individuals and groups have a right to form voluntary workshops that have criteria for entry. So if a group of brogrammers form a voluntary corporation that has being male as a criteria for entry, that's acceptable? If not, why not?
  - anologwintermut 13y ago
    No, it's not a argument for individual rights: individual rights would say Github could do what ever they want and it would say nothing about what Github should do. The argument is purportedly one of fairness: it's unfair to discriminate against men. Which is true. And we should make things fair. But it seems very difficult to, with a straight and honest face, say whatever set of circumstances has led to the massively skewed gender ration] in cs/tech is fair either. So, there is a value question: is it ok to make things slightly unfair locally to improve global fairness. There's also a practical question, does this actually cause that.
    - yummyfajitas 13y ago
      So based on your conception of individual rights, it would be OK for github to hire only males? In that case you are correct - github and brogrammers can do as they like, and we should repeal those stupid sex discrimination laws. (Note: I have no strong opinion on the morals of sexual discrimination, though I do find it distasteful. But for the sake of argument I'm appealing to the mainstream "it is wrong" perspective.)
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
anologwintermut 13y ago
It's a resource allocation problem. Is there a larger shortage of good female speakers or good male ones? Does that matter at all? Well, if you don't care that computer science and the tech industry have pretty skewed gender ratios, no not at all. But if you do care, then giving more women the ability to raise their profile helps to attract more women. And you should care,if for no other reason than you are unlikely to get all of the best and the brightest if half the population is unlikely to participate.

I don't think this is any different than other forums for learning skills where it's more or less women-only. (such as Rails Girls)

chc 13y ago

It's a good thing nobody said this.

grinich 13y ago

This is the kind of troll comment that really makes me cringe. :/ GitHub is hosting a FREE event to support a group of hackers that are under-represented and discriminated against at conferences. How is this anything but wonderful? Stop heckling. Your sarcasm is laced with entitlement and ignorance. It doesn't help anyone.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
yummyfajitas 13y ago
As this event demonstrates, men are discriminated against also. And as the op pointed out, many men(like many women) are bad speakers and lack confidence. It is not wonderful that github excludes them. Note: the values driving this post are a respect for individual rights regardless of gender. What are your values? When you clearly state them you will probably understand the point of disagreement.
- king_jester 13y ago
  The issue isn't that there are men who aren't good at public speaking too, but rather that speaker slots are still dominated by men and men are more visible in the tech community in general. Github is making an effort to provide a public speaking workshop specifically for women because of this. > Note: the values driving this post are a respect for individual rights regardless of gender. I don't see how individual rights has anything to do with this. Github is not obligated to provide a workshop for every person and Github employees have a right to create a workshop that targets women. Nobody is being prevented from running their own workshop or being forced to attend a workshop.
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    If you believe individuals have the right not to be discriminated against based on gender (I'm ambivalent), then this event violates individuals rights. What do you believe? Your first sentence suggests some value system based on group rights, individuals are irrelevant. Could you state your values more carefully? (Im especially curious how you determine which groups to give rights to.) As I said, I suspect you will recognize the points of disagreement when you do.
    - king_jester 13y ago
      > If you believe individuals have the right not to be discriminated against based on gender (I'm ambivalent), then this event violates individuals rights. What do you believe? This workshop in no way harms men as the dominant group in tech and tech public speaking events. Offering a workshop that targets for a type of person who is underrepresented and faces unique challenges for not being in the majority group doesn't constitute sexual discrimination. The workshop is discriminating in the sense that it selects for a particular kind of person, but this is different from what we mean by sexism and sexual discrimination. > Your first sentence suggests some value system based on group rights, individuals are irrelevant. Could you state your values more carefully? (Im especially curious how you determine which groups to give rights to.) As I said, I suspect you will recognize the points of disagreement when you do. The question would be are your individual rights being violated when Github hosts a workshop targeted for women? The answer is clearly no. Private individuals and groups have a right to form voluntary workshops that have criteria for entry. It would be silly to say that individuals who face unique problems from not being a part of the dominant culture can't form groups or hold events that address their specific problems.
      - yummyfajitas 13y ago
        Offering a workshop that targets for a type of person who is underrepresented and faces unique challenges for not being in the majority group doesn't constitute sexual discrimination Of course it's sex discrimination. Sex discrimination is when a function satisfies the equation: allowEntry(x.copy(gender=Female)) != allowEntry(x.copy(gender=Male)) for some x. This workshop certainly seems to qualify. If you want to argue that sexual discrimination is acceptable under some circumstances, go ahead - but as I said before, please be explicit about what your underlying values are. It'll help us all understand why we disagree. Private individuals and groups have a right to form voluntary workshops that have criteria for entry. So if a group of brogrammers form a voluntary corporation that has being male as a criteria for entry, that's acceptable? If not, why not?
- anologwintermut 13y ago
  No, it's not a argument for individual rights: individual rights would say Github could do what ever they want and it would say nothing about what Github should do. The argument is purportedly one of fairness: it's unfair to discriminate against men. Which is true. And we should make things fair. But it seems very difficult to, with a straight and honest face, say whatever set of circumstances has led to the massively skewed gender ration] in cs/tech is fair either. So, there is a value question: is it ok to make things slightly unfair locally to improve global fairness. There's also a practical question, does this actually cause that.
  - yummyfajitas 13y ago
    So based on your conception of individual rights, it would be OK for github to hire only males? In that case you are correct - github and brogrammers can do as they like, and we should repeal those stupid sex discrimination laws. (Note: I have no strong opinion on the morals of sexual discrimination, though I do find it distasteful. But for the sake of argument I'm appealing to the mainstream "it is wrong" perspective.)
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]

anologwintermut 13y ago

It's a resource allocation problem. Is there a larger shortage of good female speakers or good male ones? Does that matter at all? Well, if you don't care that computer science and the tech industry have pretty skewed gender ratios, no not at all. But if you do care, then giving more women the ability to raise their profile helps to attract more women. And you should care,if for no other reason than you are unlikely to get all of the best and the brightest if half the population is unlikely to participate.