7 ms·

Cool sentiment, but what makes you think other "hackers" have the formal background to reach out and to a depressed person? If i was depressed, the last person

by l33tbro 13y ago

Cool sentiment, but what makes you think other "hackers" have the formal background to reach out and to a depressed person? If i was depressed, the last person I'd want to talk to about it are my hacker friends. The vast majority of the population simply have no idea how to talk to mentally ill people.

tomphoolery 13y ago
When I get depressed, which usually happens around this time of year, I typically enjoy talking to other hackers. We can talk about something that isn't our own mind(s). This goes for music, too. A huge key for me is to distract my mind with something that interests me, and makes me feel productive, rather than "sitting & spinning" on a subject that is making me feel bad about myself. Talking about things that interest me makes me feel better about myself. Disclaimer: I have never been psychologically evaluated for depression or anxiety.
PhasmaFelis 13y ago
Well, that's part of the problem, the idea that you need a formal background to help a depressed person at all, and that the rest of us should go hands-off and pretend it isn't happening. Sometimes just knowing that someone cares can help. It's not universal, it's not a cure, but it is something.
- joesmo 13y ago
  Couldn't agree more. Not only is it part of the problem, the so called mental health "professionals" are hardly qualified to help themselves. For all their education, they're no better than anyone else at preventing tragedy or helping others. The only thing they are better at is fooling people into thinking that they are professionals at all. This is a sad story, but as it states at the beginning, Stephen tried to call and talk to the hospital and other "professionals." If these people had any training that qualified them to provide help that laypeople don't, they would have helped. In fact, I'd go as far to say that someone who is not a professional is more likely to help because they might genuinely care for something more than money, something a professional trains not to care about.
  - PhasmaFelis 13y ago
    Uh, no. That's not what I said at all, and it's not true. A dear friend of mine is still alive right now because her psychiatrist hammered into her that she needed a list of people to call when she felt suicidal. When the crisis came, she was just barely able to remember to call me before she reached for the knife, and my phone was charged and in my pocket because she'd told me about the psychiatrist's advice and I'd promised her I'd be available 24/7. I'm a pretty forgetful guy, but I forced myself into rigorous phone-care habits because of that psychiatrist, and that's the only reason that she didn't slit her wrists and bleed out on the carpet that night. With severe depression, your best chance of a positive outcome comes with a solid support network and a well-trained, reliable psych professional. You need both.
    - pserwylo 13y ago
      I'm not sure why you've been down voted. I didn't intend for my post to say that talking to friends or colleagues is a replacement for professional help, just that any extra help is a positive, especially when people might have a tendency to feel isolated.
      - PhasmaFelis 13y ago
        Don't worry, I think you expressed yourself clearly. I was just responding to the other folks who seemed to be explicitly saying that you only needed one of [support network/psych professional] and that the other was useless. As for the downvote, I'm pretty sure Xenophanes or one of his buddies is stalking me. After my first post disagreeing with him, everything I've posted in this thread has gotten a single downvote within five minutes, and then climbed back up later. No worries. :)
hrkristian 13y ago
Depression doesn't really need a qualified person. You're not talking to a mentally ill person, at least not in the sense that you cannot spring a bolt in a depressed person's mind and have him go on a killing spree. The blue sticker says you'll happily talk, and also listen if they have something profound to get off their chest. That's really the important part, it's not about giving advice.
- jacalata 13y ago
  Most 'mental illness' is completely unrelated to 'likely to go on a killing spree' and this kind of ignorant crap supports exactly the kind of stigma that prevents people getting help.
- seabee 13y ago
  Just to be clear we're not trivializing the condition, you're right that some sufferers of depression don't really need a qualified person (particularly if they have a good support network and sufficient strength of mind) but some people only turn around after CBT, for example. I do agree with the general thesis that talking to someone willing to listen has a neutral to positive effect. I'd also suggest it's especially helpful for people who feel they can't or shouldn't talk to anyone else they know about it.
  - DanBC 13y ago
    Sadly it's well known that non-specific counseling has a neutral or negative effect. Obviously studies about this are difficult. Someone willing to listen is important to help a person with mental health problems get support. That support doesn't have to be from a professional. It could be self guided from a good quality book or website. Or it could involve professionals, from telephone provided CBT through intensive long term psychological therapies provided by speciList providers.
rmc 13y ago
Another reason to put the sticker on there is to spread awareness and end the stigma. Some people think that mental illness isn't a real illness. But if you have something wrong with your lungs, you go to a lung doctor; so if you have something wrong with your head/mind, you should go to a mind doctor.
- yummyfajitas 13y ago
  Lung cancer and most other physical ailments have legitimate, objective diagnostic criteria. You get a test or two and find out if you have a specific disease. I.e., science. Psychiatry, except in rare cases, does nothing of the sort. Most discussion about mental illness (including your post) is an attempt to induce people to apply fallacious reasoning about it - you've developed intuitions about cancer, now go incorrectly apply that intuition to depression/drug addiction/etc. http://lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_thinking_dissolving_questions_about/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_thinking_dissolving_que... If you wish to argue that a given animal can fly, "penguins fly just like crows fly, they are both birds" is a fallacious argument. Similarly, "do X for mind disease just like you'd do X for lung disease" is a fallacious argument.
  - rmc 13y ago
    Does love exist? If so, what is the simple, legitimate, objective diagnosis test for it?
- lutusp 13y ago
  > if you have something wrong with your lungs, you go to a lung doctor; so if you have something wrong with your head/mind, you should go to a mind doctor. Yes -- except there is no such thing as a "mind doctor", at least in a scientific sense. Psychiatrists and psychologists cannot treat depression, and increasing amounts of neuroscientific evidence demonstrate that depression is not a mental illness, it's a physical one. A recent study of deep brain stimulation (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/magazine/02depression.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/magazine/02depression.html...) is showing very promising preliminary results, results in which a patient's depression lifts instantly when the stimulating signal is applied, and resumes when the signal is removed. Apart from being a promising indication for future research, this study shows that depression is not a mental illness, the domain of psychiatry and psychology, it's a physical illness, the domain of neuroscience.
blueskin_ 13y ago
But not everyone. I've gone through it myself, both badly and more commonly to lesser extents, and while I'm not a professional and don't claim to be, I do have the personal understanding, and can understand why/how people feel depressed. Myself, I find talking to people helps, not all the time, but often, and I know when I might want to. As it is, not everyone is such a way either - for many people, just knowing that there is someone that could talk with if they wanted to can be helpful. As it is, I find the description of depression as a mental illness a bit overbroad - yes, it definitely is a real condition (sometimes lifelong, sometimes intermittent, sometimes temporary) and unfortunately there isn't a better term, but it isn't something requiring drugs (which can make things worse in some conditions)/ doctors all the time, and normal people can and should help if they feel able and willing to.
DanBC 13y ago
I strongly agree with you. Except destigmatising mental health problems is an important step in letting people get therapeutic help. Someone suffering a mental health problem might not know where to turn to or want a bit of support to go get help. Knowing that colleagues and friends are not judgmental about mental health; or that those people will help access services is a good thing.
LinXitoW 13y ago
I've been depressed and it's precisely because of that i'm certain i couldn't be of help to someone depressed. Thinking back, i can't think of anything my friends could've said that would've helped. I mean, i was basically a pessimistic, cynical asshole that shot everything down, be it "it'll be ok" or "Lets go to the cinema".
lutusp 13y ago
> Cool sentiment, but what makes you think other "hackers" have the formal background to reach out and to a depressed person? Excuse me, but what "formal background" is that? It's not as though psychology is a science, or that psychologists know what causes depression or how to treat it -- public evidence clearly proves they do not. The field of psychology is such a disaster that the director of the NIMH recently ruled that the DSM (psychology's "bible") may no longer be used as the basis for scientific research proposals, for the simple reason that it has no scientific content. The director said: Source: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2013/transforming-diagnosis.shtml http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2013/transforming-dia... Quote: "While DSM has been described as a “Bible” for the field, it is, at best, a dictionary, creating a set of labels and defining each. The strength of each of the editions of DSM has been “reliability” – each edition has ensured that clinicians use the same terms in the same ways. The weakness is its lack of validity." "Unlike our definitions of ischemic heart disease, lymphoma, or AIDS, the DSM diagnoses are based on a consensus about clusters of clinical symptoms, not any objective laboratory measure. In the rest of medicine, this would be equivalent to creating diagnostic systems based on the nature of chest pain or the quality of fever. Indeed, symptom-based diagnosis, once common in other areas of medicine, has been largely replaced in the past half century as we have understood that symptoms alone rarely indicate the best choice of treatment. Patients with mental disorders deserve better. [emphasis added] As to depression specifically, psychological treatments are notoriously ineffective, but alternative neuroscientific approaches like deep brain stimulation (DBS) are showing great promise. A recent flurry of treatment outcomes that apply deep brain stimulation lead to outcomes in which, by throwing a switch, a brain surgeon can literally turn depression on and off. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/magazine/02depression.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/magazine/02depression.html... Quote: '"So we turn it on," Mayberg told me later, "and all of a sudden she says to me, 'It's very strange,' she says, 'I know you've been with me in the operating room this whole time. I know you care about me. But it's not that. I don't know what you just did. But I'm looking at you, and it's like I just feel suddenly more connected to you.' ' "Mayberg, stunned, signaled with her hand to the others, out of Deanna's view, to turn the stimulator off." '"And they turn it off," Mayberg said, "and she goes: 'God, it's just so odd. You just went away again. I guess it wasn't really anything.'"' I emphasize this procedure is still experimental and is not yet being offered as a clinical treatment. My point is that people need to get over their reverence for psychology -- it's not scientific, and there's no evidence that it is effective in any scientific sense. This may come as a surprise to some, but within the mental health field, a revolution is taking place -- a revolution that intends to replace psychological treatments with neuroscientific ones.

by l33tbro 13y ago

tomphoolery 13y ago

When I get depressed, which usually happens around this time of year, I typically enjoy talking to other hackers. We can talk about something that isn't our own mind(s). This goes for music, too. A huge key for me is to distract my mind with something that interests me, and makes me feel productive, rather than "sitting & spinning" on a subject that is making me feel bad about myself. Talking about things that interest me makes me feel better about myself. Disclaimer: I have never been psychologically evaluated for depression or anxiety.

PhasmaFelis 13y ago

Well, that's part of the problem, the idea that you need a formal background to help a depressed person at all, and that the rest of us should go hands-off and pretend it isn't happening. Sometimes just knowing that someone cares can help. It's not universal, it's not a cure, but it is something.

joesmo 13y ago
Couldn't agree more. Not only is it part of the problem, the so called mental health "professionals" are hardly qualified to help themselves. For all their education, they're no better than anyone else at preventing tragedy or helping others. The only thing they are better at is fooling people into thinking that they are professionals at all. This is a sad story, but as it states at the beginning, Stephen tried to call and talk to the hospital and other "professionals." If these people had any training that qualified them to provide help that laypeople don't, they would have helped. In fact, I'd go as far to say that someone who is not a professional is more likely to help because they might genuinely care for something more than money, something a professional trains not to care about.
- PhasmaFelis 13y ago
  Uh, no. That's not what I said at all, and it's not true. A dear friend of mine is still alive right now because her psychiatrist hammered into her that she needed a list of people to call when she felt suicidal. When the crisis came, she was just barely able to remember to call me before she reached for the knife, and my phone was charged and in my pocket because she'd told me about the psychiatrist's advice and I'd promised her I'd be available 24/7. I'm a pretty forgetful guy, but I forced myself into rigorous phone-care habits because of that psychiatrist, and that's the only reason that she didn't slit her wrists and bleed out on the carpet that night. With severe depression, your best chance of a positive outcome comes with a solid support network and a well-trained, reliable psych professional. You need both.
  - pserwylo 13y ago
    I'm not sure why you've been down voted. I didn't intend for my post to say that talking to friends or colleagues is a replacement for professional help, just that any extra help is a positive, especially when people might have a tendency to feel isolated.
    - PhasmaFelis 13y ago
      Don't worry, I think you expressed yourself clearly. I was just responding to the other folks who seemed to be explicitly saying that you only needed one of [support network/psych professional] and that the other was useless. As for the downvote, I'm pretty sure Xenophanes or one of his buddies is stalking me. After my first post disagreeing with him, everything I've posted in this thread has gotten a single downvote within five minutes, and then climbed back up later. No worries. :)

hrkristian 13y ago

Depression doesn't really need a qualified person. You're not talking to a mentally ill person, at least not in the sense that you cannot spring a bolt in a depressed person's mind and have him go on a killing spree. The blue sticker says you'll happily talk, and also listen if they have something profound to get off their chest. That's really the important part, it's not about giving advice.

jacalata 13y ago
Most 'mental illness' is completely unrelated to 'likely to go on a killing spree' and this kind of ignorant crap supports exactly the kind of stigma that prevents people getting help.
seabee 13y ago
Just to be clear we're not trivializing the condition, you're right that some sufferers of depression don't really need a qualified person (particularly if they have a good support network and sufficient strength of mind) but some people only turn around after CBT, for example. I do agree with the general thesis that talking to someone willing to listen has a neutral to positive effect. I'd also suggest it's especially helpful for people who feel they can't or shouldn't talk to anyone else they know about it.
- DanBC 13y ago
  Sadly it's well known that non-specific counseling has a neutral or negative effect. Obviously studies about this are difficult. Someone willing to listen is important to help a person with mental health problems get support. That support doesn't have to be from a professional. It could be self guided from a good quality book or website. Or it could involve professionals, from telephone provided CBT through intensive long term psychological therapies provided by speciList providers.

rmc 13y ago

Another reason to put the sticker on there is to spread awareness and end the stigma. Some people think that mental illness isn't a real illness. But if you have something wrong with your lungs, you go to a lung doctor; so if you have something wrong with your head/mind, you should go to a mind doctor.

yummyfajitas 13y ago
Lung cancer and most other physical ailments have legitimate, objective diagnostic criteria. You get a test or two and find out if you have a specific disease. I.e., science. Psychiatry, except in rare cases, does nothing of the sort. Most discussion about mental illness (including your post) is an attempt to induce people to apply fallacious reasoning about it - you've developed intuitions about cancer, now go incorrectly apply that intuition to depression/drug addiction/etc. http://lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_thinking_dissolving_questions_about/ http://lesswrong.com/lw/2as/diseased_thinking_dissolving_que... If you wish to argue that a given animal can fly, "penguins fly just like crows fly, they are both birds" is a fallacious argument. Similarly, "do X for mind disease just like you'd do X for lung disease" is a fallacious argument.
- rmc 13y ago
  Does love exist? If so, what is the simple, legitimate, objective diagnosis test for it?
lutusp 13y ago
> if you have something wrong with your lungs, you go to a lung doctor; so if you have something wrong with your head/mind, you should go to a mind doctor. Yes -- except there is no such thing as a "mind doctor", at least in a scientific sense. Psychiatrists and psychologists cannot treat depression, and increasing amounts of neuroscientific evidence demonstrate that depression is not a mental illness, it's a physical one. A recent study of deep brain stimulation (http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/magazine/02depression.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/magazine/02depression.html...) is showing very promising preliminary results, results in which a patient's depression lifts instantly when the stimulating signal is applied, and resumes when the signal is removed. Apart from being a promising indication for future research, this study shows that depression is not a mental illness, the domain of psychiatry and psychology, it's a physical illness, the domain of neuroscience.

blueskin_ 13y ago

But not everyone. I've gone through it myself, both badly and more commonly to lesser extents, and while I'm not a professional and don't claim to be, I do have the personal understanding, and can understand why/how people feel depressed. Myself, I find talking to people helps, not all the time, but often, and I know when I might want to. As it is, not everyone is such a way either - for many people, just knowing that there is someone that could talk with if they wanted to can be helpful. As it is, I find the description of depression as a mental illness a bit overbroad - yes, it definitely is a real condition (sometimes lifelong, sometimes intermittent, sometimes temporary) and unfortunately there isn't a better term, but it isn't something requiring drugs (which can make things worse in some conditions)/ doctors all the time, and normal people can and should help if they feel able and willing to.

DanBC 13y ago

I strongly agree with you. Except destigmatising mental health problems is an important step in letting people get therapeutic help. Someone suffering a mental health problem might not know where to turn to or want a bit of support to go get help. Knowing that colleagues and friends are not judgmental about mental health; or that those people will help access services is a good thing.

LinXitoW 13y ago

I've been depressed and it's precisely because of that i'm certain i couldn't be of help to someone depressed. Thinking back, i can't think of anything my friends could've said that would've helped. I mean, i was basically a pessimistic, cynical asshole that shot everything down, be it "it'll be ok" or "Lets go to the cinema".

lutusp 13y ago

> Cool sentiment, but what makes you think other "hackers" have the formal background to reach out and to a depressed person? Excuse me, but what "formal background" is that? It's not as though psychology is a science, or that psychologists know what causes depression or how to treat it -- public evidence clearly proves they do not. The field of psychology is such a disaster that the director of the NIMH recently ruled that the DSM (psychology's "bible") may no longer be used as the basis for scientific research proposals, for the simple reason that it has no scientific content. The director said: Source: http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2013/transforming-diagnosis.shtml http://www.nimh.nih.gov/about/director/2013/transforming-dia... Quote: "While DSM has been described as a “Bible” for the field, it is, at best, a dictionary, creating a set of labels and defining each. The strength of each of the editions of DSM has been “reliability” – each edition has ensured that clinicians use the same terms in the same ways. The weakness is its lack of validity." "Unlike our definitions of ischemic heart disease, lymphoma, or AIDS, the DSM diagnoses are based on a consensus about clusters of clinical symptoms, not any objective laboratory measure. In the rest of medicine, this would be equivalent to creating diagnostic systems based on the nature of chest pain or the quality of fever. Indeed, symptom-based diagnosis, once common in other areas of medicine, has been largely replaced in the past half century as we have understood that symptoms alone rarely indicate the best choice of treatment. Patients with mental disorders deserve better. [emphasis added] As to depression specifically, psychological treatments are notoriously ineffective, but alternative neuroscientific approaches like deep brain stimulation (DBS) are showing great promise. A recent flurry of treatment outcomes that apply deep brain stimulation lead to outcomes in which, by throwing a switch, a brain surgeon can literally turn depression on and off. Source: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/magazine/02depression.html?pagewanted=all http://www.nytimes.com/2006/04/02/magazine/02depression.html... Quote: '"So we turn it on," Mayberg told me later, "and all of a sudden she says to me, 'It's very strange,' she says, 'I know you've been with me in the operating room this whole time. I know you care about me. But it's not that. I don't know what you just did. But I'm looking at you, and it's like I just feel suddenly more connected to you.' ' "Mayberg, stunned, signaled with her hand to the others, out of Deanna's view, to turn the stimulator off." '"And they turn it off," Mayberg said, "and she goes: 'God, it's just so odd. You just went away again. I guess it wasn't really anything.'"' I emphasize this procedure is still experimental and is not yet being offered as a clinical treatment. My point is that people need to get over their reverence for psychology -- it's not scientific, and there's no evidence that it is effective in any scientific sense. This may come as a surprise to some, but within the mental health field, a revolution is taking place -- a revolution that intends to replace psychological treatments with neuroscientific ones.