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I like how you squeezed in that subtle dig at PHP. It's like you like the idea of being language agnostic just as long as it doesn't involve languages you don't

by jcroll 13y ago

I like how you squeezed in that subtle dig at PHP. It's like you like the idea of being language agnostic just as long as it doesn't involve languages you don't like.

nostrademons 13y ago
He's stating a personal opinion. The only way that becomes a subtle dig at PHP is if you make it such.
Pacabel 13y ago
I don't read that as being a "subtle dig at PHP". There are many very legitimate reasons for a developer, especially one well-versed in many languages, to not want to use PHP. And his position is very reasonable. He doesn't seem to care if you use PHP, if it works for you. But he doesn't like using PHP himself, for whatever reason(s), and wishes to not use it. His abstinence from PHP doesn't prevent or affect your (or anyone else's) use of it.
- oafitupa 13y ago
  That's not what he's saying. He's basically saying that it's 0K to use PHP if you can't use anything else because you are not smart enough. And you won't even achieve great things, you will barely be able to build something. PHPers like me know very well this kind of trolling (after years of suffering it), but we are also way above it already. Sometimes we want to reply, but then we remember that this trolling is born from bitterness and lack of success, so we just let it be.
  - sosborn 13y ago
    > we are also way above it already Are you sure about that?
  - untog 13y ago
    I'm not sure you'll be able to read his post properly while you do it through the chip on your shoulder.
    - oafitupa 13y ago
      Or maybe it's you the one who can't read it properly? Else explain to me what he meant by this: "PHP made it very easy for a lot of people to do something with the web, something that otherwise they might not have been able to do"
      - fzltrp 13y ago
        a lot of people != all php users. Actually a lot of people != the majority of php users. You're reading a bit too much in what OP wrote. I have beern an avid php programmer several years ago, and still like it very much by the way.
  - hnriot 13y ago
    I do python and scala at work yet I love php, it's made a ton of difference to the web (think wordpress for example) - it's perfectly possible to write killer php and do everything from machine learning to webapps. PHP has the best date extractor of any language that i've seen.
  - davidw 13y ago
    > not smart enough That's not what I said. I was trying to point out a good side of a language that I do not particularly care for. Think about it this way: there are plenty of smart people with good ideas who, however, are not programmers. Doctors, accountants, architects, physicists... whatever. A system that has a low barrier to entry so that these people can create something is a positive thing to have. And if programming PHP floats your boat, that's fine too.
  - girvo 13y ago
    With respect, I'm a proud PHP developer who does crazy things like use a Lisp that compiles to PHP to build services; I am working on some awesome stuff to take advantage of Composer and the new modular PHP Library systems, and all sorts of other stuff. I love working in PHP, and I'm not ashamed to admit that, despite having written my own languages, and being partial to C. My current favourite to work with is nimrod... Anyway, the point is: you completely read the OP wrong, in my opinion, and I'm the person that would be most offended if it was a dig...
- datphp 13y ago
  > There are many very legitimate reasons for a developer, especially one well-versed in many languages, to not want to use PHP. Like what? I feel there are many reasons why it is a dangerous language for a novice, but if you can be productive with C/Java/Python/Go/YouNameIt, you can probably write nice, maintainable and reliable PHP. If you're talking about technical difficulties or elegance or whatever, sure. I'll just go with the Facebook argument. I've bootstrapped many projects for companies who aren't made of über hackers, and going PHP guarantees them they can very easily find people who can pick-up the code later on. Also, any * hosting will run your code. I think nowadays, ideally, I'd just use Go for everything. But in reality, productivity > idealism.
shadowfox 13y ago
I don't think OP is talking about absolute neutrality. It is more about maintaining a perspective. (Which usually includes understanding/acknowledging the good and bad parts)
adamors 13y ago
Yeah, at this point I actually find it amusing just how much flack PHP gets from people on HN who only think about it in terms of Wordpress and spotty 15 year olds trying out web dev for the first time.
- oafitupa 13y ago
  The same happens with everything, some people just choose to be ignorant. Another good example of this is the irrational hate Bitcoin gets.
- acomjean 13y ago
  I think at this point PHP programmers don't care about the flack. We're pretty used to it. As a php programmer and a member of a php user group I can say that group seeems to have half of its talks on non php topics javascript, html5, css etc. I like the community that doesn't fret about tools and only about how to build something interesting.
controversial 13y ago
PHP is whack. Get over it. Agnostic != ignorant.
exelius 13y ago
I think PHP was used an example of a language that is a total train wreck from a technical standpoint (and I don't think many people would disagree with that.) Despite being a train wreck, PHP is still useful and has been a net positive for the tech industry. Plus all the work that Facebook has done in fixing PHP has turned it into something better than it was.

by jcroll 13y ago

I like how you squeezed in that subtle dig at PHP. It's like you like the idea of being language agnostic just as long as it doesn't involve languages you don't like.

nostrademons 13y ago

He's stating a personal opinion. The only way that becomes a subtle dig at PHP is if you make it such.

Pacabel 13y ago

I don't read that as being a "subtle dig at PHP". There are many very legitimate reasons for a developer, especially one well-versed in many languages, to not want to use PHP. And his position is very reasonable. He doesn't seem to care if you use PHP, if it works for you. But he doesn't like using PHP himself, for whatever reason(s), and wishes to not use it. His abstinence from PHP doesn't prevent or affect your (or anyone else's) use of it.

oafitupa 13y ago
That's not what he's saying. He's basically saying that it's 0K to use PHP if you can't use anything else because you are not smart enough. And you won't even achieve great things, you will barely be able to build something. PHPers like me know very well this kind of trolling (after years of suffering it), but we are also way above it already. Sometimes we want to reply, but then we remember that this trolling is born from bitterness and lack of success, so we just let it be.
- sosborn 13y ago
  > we are also way above it already Are you sure about that?
- untog 13y ago
  I'm not sure you'll be able to read his post properly while you do it through the chip on your shoulder.
  - oafitupa 13y ago
    Or maybe it's you the one who can't read it properly? Else explain to me what he meant by this: "PHP made it very easy for a lot of people to do something with the web, something that otherwise they might not have been able to do"
    - fzltrp 13y ago
      a lot of people != all php users. Actually a lot of people != the majority of php users. You're reading a bit too much in what OP wrote. I have beern an avid php programmer several years ago, and still like it very much by the way.
- hnriot 13y ago
  I do python and scala at work yet I love php, it's made a ton of difference to the web (think wordpress for example) - it's perfectly possible to write killer php and do everything from machine learning to webapps. PHP has the best date extractor of any language that i've seen.
- davidw 13y ago
  > not smart enough That's not what I said. I was trying to point out a good side of a language that I do not particularly care for. Think about it this way: there are plenty of smart people with good ideas who, however, are not programmers. Doctors, accountants, architects, physicists... whatever. A system that has a low barrier to entry so that these people can create something is a positive thing to have. And if programming PHP floats your boat, that's fine too.
- girvo 13y ago
  With respect, I'm a proud PHP developer who does crazy things like use a Lisp that compiles to PHP to build services; I am working on some awesome stuff to take advantage of Composer and the new modular PHP Library systems, and all sorts of other stuff. I love working in PHP, and I'm not ashamed to admit that, despite having written my own languages, and being partial to C. My current favourite to work with is nimrod... Anyway, the point is: you completely read the OP wrong, in my opinion, and I'm the person that would be most offended if it was a dig...
datphp 13y ago
> There are many very legitimate reasons for a developer, especially one well-versed in many languages, to not want to use PHP. Like what? I feel there are many reasons why it is a dangerous language for a novice, but if you can be productive with C/Java/Python/Go/YouNameIt, you can probably write nice, maintainable and reliable PHP. If you're talking about technical difficulties or elegance or whatever, sure. I'll just go with the Facebook argument. I've bootstrapped many projects for companies who aren't made of über hackers, and going PHP guarantees them they can very easily find people who can pick-up the code later on. Also, any * hosting will run your code. I think nowadays, ideally, I'd just use Go for everything. But in reality, productivity > idealism.

shadowfox 13y ago

I don't think OP is talking about absolute neutrality. It is more about maintaining a perspective. (Which usually includes understanding/acknowledging the good and bad parts)

adamors 13y ago

Yeah, at this point I actually find it amusing just how much flack PHP gets from people on HN who only think about it in terms of Wordpress and spotty 15 year olds trying out web dev for the first time.

oafitupa 13y ago
The same happens with everything, some people just choose to be ignorant. Another good example of this is the irrational hate Bitcoin gets.
acomjean 13y ago
I think at this point PHP programmers don't care about the flack. We're pretty used to it. As a php programmer and a member of a php user group I can say that group seeems to have half of its talks on non php topics javascript, html5, css etc. I like the community that doesn't fret about tools and only about how to build something interesting.

controversial 13y ago

PHP is whack. Get over it. Agnostic != ignorant.

exelius 13y ago

I think PHP was used an example of a language that is a total train wreck from a technical standpoint (and I don't think many people would disagree with that.) Despite being a train wreck, PHP is still useful and has been a net positive for the tech industry. Plus all the work that Facebook has done in fixing PHP has turned it into something better than it was.