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Tell HN: My Brother Died Last Week. His Death Will Not Be In Vain
- seancoleman 13y agoI can only sympathize with what Evan and Stephen went through. We must break the stigma against mental illness. It is far too wide reaching and impactful not to be at the forefront of technology innovation and health research. I challenge new startups to start attacking depression and anxiety disorders. The best solution to depression is often simply finding what works for you through trial and error of available options including medication, therapy, supplements, better nutrition, exercise etc. Unfortunately, this is a long and arduous process that some never make it through. How can we accelerate this discovery process for mentally ill people to find the help they need?
- __m 13y agonotify me when you find a solution.
- __m 13y agovoted down for being depressed, very classy hn
- xenophanes 13y ago> We must break the stigma against mental illness How? People are labelled mentally ill IFF they do things that have a stigma attached.
- seancoleman 13y agoI don't believe that's true. There are plenty of mentally ill people (depression, anxiety, bi-polar) that act completely normal like Stephen. They often suffer in silence.
- xenophanes 13y agoHow could he possibly have been, "in a highly-respected treatment program", or labelled mentally ill, if he acted completely normal and suffered in silence?
- md224 13y agoThe parent comment was merely questioning the validity of your weird assertion that "People are labelled mentally ill IFF they do things that have a stigma attached". Perhaps you meant "people who do not self-identify as mentally ill but have that designation imposed on them." Maybe you'd have a case there. But the fact remains that many people suffer from mental illness, and it isn't always just a case of society rejecting them for being "different."
- xenophanes 13y agoYou're informing me of a "fact" without a citation. You have not succeeded at persuading me. If you wish to change my mind, tell me where Szasz was mistaken. If you are not familiar with Szasz, perhaps you should try reading both sides of the issue before passing judgment.
- md224 13y agoWell I can think of at least one counterexample: myself. I suffer from a moderate case of obsessive-compulsive disorder. I have paced back and forth, obsessively checking that the sink in my bathroom is truly off, feeling my anxiety continuing to rise despite obvious visual confirmation. I once ripped the door handle off the front door of my parents' house because I had been strenuously pulling on it, neurotically ruminating on the idea that maybe, just maybe, the door wasn't completely closed. I suffer from mental illness, and it isn't because my behaviors have a "stigma." It's because my behaviors are illogical and cause me a non-trivial amount of distress. So if you're going to rant on this forum about how mental illness is some socially-constructed tool of oppression, how about you go fuck yourself? Thanks.
- marvin 13y agoPlease, just stop. You are disrespectful, rude and wrong to boot. Show some restraint, this is a thread to mourn someone who just died under violent circumstances.
- ossreality 13y agoConstant reminder that I need to write for Paddy's http:/gets.by. I have been dumbstruck by how much stigma I have faced even telling my friends that I've struggled with depression and panic/anxiety attacks that spiral into depression. It's the hardest thing I've had to confront in my life, hands down.
- erichurkman 13y agoI am sorry for your loss. > What happened to Stephen and our family is something that “happens to someone else.” Mental health issues impact everyone at some point in their life – either personally, or through someone close. Unfortunately, society seems to discount mental health issues – they are not an open discussion topic. They are complex and difficult to understand and diagnose. This is something we should all endeavor to correct, for the better health of everyone.
- EMRo 13y agoAgreed completely. The stigma attached just makes things harder.
- almosnow 13y agoCare to say what was his actual problem was? And how did he passed out?
- nobodysfool 13y agoYea, I feel that's kind of important to the whole thing. Talk about what the illness was, not about the person. For all I know it could be anything from autophagia to trichotillomania.
- colept 13y agoWhile it's a tragic loss, it's purpose is moot because many people read the entire thing and still don't know what his symptoms were. If you want to desensitize the discussion about mental illness, you need to expose the underlying conditions and make people aware.
- EMRo 13y agoThis is true. I was an advocate of complete openness. My mother is understandably very sensitive about the wording used so I wanted to respect her wishes.
- nobodysfool 13y agoWell, if you want people to not stigmatize mental illness, you should start by not doing it yourself.
- civilian 13y agoFrom reading inbetween the lines, it sounds like depression and suicide. Evan, I'm sorry for your loss. Be with friends everyday this week. The internet can wait.
- EMRo 13y agoHe had 'symptoms of depression, anxiety and schizophrenia'. The psychiatrists etc always danced around saying 'symptoms of' but he was seeking help.
- kimura 13y agoSorry for your loss.
- SpaceRaccoon 13y agoFrom Stephen's tumblr: "23RD JAN 2014 Recent experiences caused me to examine my motivation for undertaking potentially revenue-generating projects. I initiated this site in order to produce income — a reason which seemed to require no further examination at the time. However, upon further reflection I discovered that I sought something more significant than income. After pondering more deeply, I realized that income generation is not my ultimate motivation; I recognized that there are contexts in which money is useless or non-existent (e.g. being stranded alone on an island; or when a national government is radically re-structured in the wake of a natural disaster). Money is merely a means to attain other ends — it is a tool. Accordingly, I recognized that creating and producing value is my primary goal, while income generation follows subsequently. This realization informs my time expenditure; I could cease writing this passage, and instead apply for employment positions via the internet. Conceivably, this strategy could be more effective for increasing my revenue over the short term — prior to my insight of today, I might have pursued this option. However, I now distinguish between income generation and value creation, and currently aim to maximize the latter. Accordingly, I will perform salaried labor for the minimum amount of time necessary to meet my material needs, while devoting all time thereafter to working on my venture." Insightful, admirable person. Rest in peace.
- notastartup 13y agoI would start out by saying there's a stigma around mental illness and that it's not a "real" illness and that it's "all in the head therefore not real". It is exactly this type of attitude we have had since the dark ages that much development of treatment and studies are now only beginning to take more shape. We have to have a much wider awareness of mental illness and how it affects the basic human rights.
- xenophanes 13y agoHow does it affect basic human rights, exactly? Some examples: People labelled mentally ill can be imprisoned without a trial. People labelled mentally ill can avoid prison when another person who did the same actions would go to jail. People labelled mentally ill can be drugged by force. This is bad for basic human rights, isn't it?
- ceejayoz 13y ago> People labelled mentally ill can be imprisoned without a trial. So can people not labelled mentally ill, and involuntary confinement happens well within the confines of our legal and justice systems. > People labelled mentally ill can avoid prison when another person who did the same actions would go to jail. People found not guilty by reason of insanity are typically kept in a forensic unit with similar levels of freedom as a prison, and typically are detained longer. It's not as if they're turned loose. > People labelled mentally ill can be drugged by force. So can people not labelled mentally ill.
- xenophanes 13y agoSo there's other bad things in the world, too. What's your point? Sometimes people who escape criminal justice via psychiatry get similar levels of freedom. Sometimes significantly less freedom! It can be a way to imprison people for an indeterminate sentence which may last longer than the maximum prison term for their offense. And, sometimes it's quite a lot like they are turned loose. All of these happen.
- lampe3 13y agoSorry for your loss. Make every day count!
- xenophanes 13y ago> he did all the things he was supposed to do to get help in a moment of crisis - made multiple calls to his care providers, to 911 and even went to the hospital. He had been experiencing symptoms for several years but was in a highly-respected treatment program that was working intimately with him. So in other words, conventional psychiatry failed. And the author's solution seems to be to spread it more. Maybe after a failure like this, where we see that the care providers, hospital and "highly-respected treatment program" don't work, it's time to stop respecting that treatment program so much and consider different approaches. http://www.szasz.com http://www.szasz.com
- ceejayoz 13y agoSzasz thinks mental illness has no biological basis, which flies in the face of the empirical fact that twin/adoption studies have shown a clear hereditary basis for a variety of conditions like bipolar, schizophrenia, etc. Arguing that someone dying despite psychiatry invalidates psychiatry is like arguing cancer treatment is useless because some people die of cancer.
- xenophanes 13y agoDo you want to discuss this seriously? If so, cite an actual study and say specifically what conclusion it reaches and specifically how that contradicts Szasz. You seem to be implying that Szasz and I hold our positions due to scientific ignorance, which is demonstrably false, and insulting. But maybe you didn't mean it that way.
- ceejayoz 13y agohttp://www.szasz.com/manifesto.html http://www.szasz.com/manifesto.html > Mental illness is a metaphor (metaphorical disease). The word "disease" denotes a demonstrable biological process that affects the bodies of living organisms (plants, animals, and humans). The term "mental illness" refers to the undesirable thoughts, feelings, and behaviors of persons. Classifying thoughts, feelings, and behaviors as diseases is a logical and semantic error, like classifying the whale as a fish. As the whale is not a fish, mental illness is not a disease. Individuals with brain diseases (bad brains) or kidney diseases (bad kidneys) are literally sick. Individuals with mental diseases (bad behaviors), like societies with economic diseases (bad fiscal policies), are metaphorically sick. The classification of (mis)behavior as illness provides an ideological justification for state-sponsored social control as medical treatment. Again, this is refuted by twin/adoption studies, which allow for control of environmental causes. One example: http://www.massgeneral.org/psychiatry/assets/Smoller2003_Family_twin_adoption_bipolar_disorder_AmJMedGenetics.pdf http://www.massgeneral.org/psychiatry/assets/Smoller2003_Fam...
- trvd1707 13y agoI'm sorry for your loss. I lost my son to suicide in 2009. He was brilliant, very sociable, very mature and he too struggled with mental illness. Today I know a lot more about the subject and I'm trying to help preventing more suicides from happening and mental health from being poorly diagnosed and treated. Right now I'm working on a project to develop apps for smart devices that can help people at risk of suicide. If anyone wants to help, please, contact me.
- xenophanes 13y agoHave you read Szasz? Have you refuted his arguments? If you have not considered arguments which say what you're doing is actively bad, but you're going ahead anyway, isn't that irresponsible? If you have considered them, could you tell or link me the answer?
- whyleyc 13y agoBecause ivory tower intellectual debate is exactly what people raw from the emotion of a life changing event need right now. Why not take a step back and ask yourself whether this might be a helpful thing to do in a universe which didn't revolve around your debating skills.
- wiredfool 13y agoThat's not ivory tower debate. That's "I'm hyperrational so you're wrong" dysfunctional argumentation.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- EMRo 13y agoI'm doing the same thing. Going to be writing a social SOS app for iphone/android using Ionic Framework. Coding helps ease the pain. Shoot me an email. evanmrose at gmail dot com
- seancoleman 13y agoI hope one day coming out as mentally ill will have no more stigma than announcing you have cancer.
- sliverstorm 13y agoDo you mean "no more stigma"?
- seancoleman 13y agoYes, thank you.
- EMRo 13y agoThat's my hope too. Make going to therapy no more of a big deal than having a cast after a broken bone.
- Mz 13y agoI get the impression that this is a long, polite way of saying Steve committed suicide. The last time I was on HN and the topic of suicide came up, I wrote kind of a ranty piece that I am not up to editing it (to remove the rantiness) and reposting. The short version: If you know someone who is suicidal and you care about them, spend time with them. In person. Suicide is almost always committed when one is alone. My credentials: I attempted suicide at 17 and have been hospitalized once or twice for being suicidal in my teens/twenties. In recent years, when medical issues make me mentally and emotionally unstable, my adult sons "babysit" me (in other words, I am not left alone when I might be genuinely suicidal and not just grumpy about life's stressors). I am 48 and I am okay these days in spite of serious medical problems which have somatopsychic impacts (it's a real word -- look it up). So I know it is a method that works.
- sdegutis 13y agoSomeone who's depressed enough to consider suicide probably also experiences a crippling loss of hope which prevents them from taking the steps necessary to make local friends in the first place whom they would be able to reach out to. At least that's been my experience.
- EMRo 13y agoHe did. Thank you for sharing your story. I wish I had been there for him when he needed me like your sons can be there for you.
- Mz 13y ago((HUGS))
- mailshanx 13y agoMy deepest condolences. Hearing about your brother makes me very sad.
- wavefunction 13y agoThe best actors in the world are the depressed. No one who knows me knows how many times I have almost died. I say this in the hopes that it helps with the hurt a bit, though losing your brother never goes away. I lost mine to a motorcycle accident when a driver got impatient with traffic.
- deleted 13y ago[deleted]
- ca98am79 13y agoEMRo - I'm very sorry for your loss. I am going through something similar right now with my father who has psychotic depression. It is really hard. Thank you for your post, and for helping to raise awareness about this. I will try to help.
- benwikler 13y agoEMRo, I'm so so sorry about your loss and your family's loss. Thank you for writing about it. Please take care of yourself as well—and let others take care of you. Grief lasts a lifetime, but it won't always hurt as acutely as it does now. Along the way, you might find some of this helpful; I know I do. http://quinnnorton.com/revived/tips.html http://quinnnorton.com/revived/tips.html
- dfc 13y agoThe fact that talking about mental health issues is beyond "the fringe of acceptable conversation" is harmful. I wholeheartedly agree that something needs to change on this front in order to prevent more tragedies. One small step would be to stop saying "lost the battle and passed from this world" and say "committed suicide." We will not be able to engage in thoughtful, constructive and mature conversations if one of the unfortunate outcomes of mental illness is so taboo that we can not speak its name in public. Can you imagine a sexual education class where the teacher used terms like "thingies," "who-hahs" or "that other kind of sex"?
- EMRo 13y agoAgreed. I chose to soften the language for my mother's sake.
- curun1r 13y ago> One small step would be to stop saying "lost the battle and passed from this world" and say "committed suicide." Or just 'suicided'. Suicide is typically a noun, but can be used as a verb too. Using the word commit, to me, ties it with judgmental phrases like 'committing a crime' or 'committing a sin'. Part of changing our perspective on mental illness will be to call out the subtle ways in which we demonize or otherwise blame the victim.
- Mz 13y agoPlease see: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7228583 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7228583 I generally agree with you and stated clearly that it sounded like suicide. But, a) my mom says "funerals are for the living". So I think we need to respect the pain of the family here. And b) I have been writing online about very hard, delicate topics for quite a long time. So I have some practice with walking that line which I don't think we can expect or demand from someone in shock and mourning.
- dfc 13y agoMy original comment was motivated by genuine compassion and empathy. I have been starting and stopping a response to OP's reply to me for an hour now and I am unsure of how to phrase things. Your mom has a point, but when do we respect and try to prevent the pain of the next family? Every time this happens I understand and am tempted by the "now is not the time" reaction but I am also reminded of my favorite piece of writing: "Frankly, I have yet to engage in a [discussion of suicide and depression] that was 'well timed' in the view of those who have not suffered unduly from the disease of [depression]. For years now I have heard the word 'Wait!' It rings in the ear of every [parent/friend/depressive] with piercing familiarity. This 'Wait' has almost always meant 'Never.'"
- thaumaturgy 13y agoThank you for starting a conversation about this. I know it's difficult, but it's important for the health and wellbeing of many other people struggling with the same problems that there are conversations like this one. I've struggled with depression too, though never been suicidal. Both of my parents made multiple suicide attempts last year. I hope you don't blame yourself for not being there for your brother. You can't predict when someone will need help, it's extremely difficult for most people to offer effective help, and people struggling with depression and other mental illnesses often get good at hiding it.
- larrys 13y agoI just forked and came up with your site with this: http://www.robsheldon.com/blog/depression-programming/ http://www.robsheldon.com/blog/depression-programming/ Just submitted it. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7228491 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7228491 Very interesting piece (will put my thoughts in the comments of that).
- thaumaturgy 13y agoYikes! Thanks. I'll try to participate in that thread a bit.
- wozniacki 13y agoWithout sounding insensitive, may I ask what it is - that you think - that is at the root of this stripe of depression that you seem to be well acquainted with. I know that this sort of thing cannot be easily summed up. However, most of us on the outside have little clue about what sets these things in motion, for various individuals, in the first place. Broadly and typically, is it a fundamental disillusionment with (and thereby rejection of) the state of affairs of the world and the person's place in that world? Is it a sense of (perceived) total betrayal of the social contract? I'm sure any elaboration would help others understand this better.
- Mz 13y agoI cannot answer for Rob, but there can be significant bio-medical factors. I am not really prone to depression. If I am depressed for more than a short period of time, you can bet I am anemic, not sleeping well enough, etc. But I have a serious medical condition and have lived with quite a lot of crazy-making stress over the years. If my brain chemistry is wonky enough, I can be suicidal, in spite of not being the depressive type. I know a fair amount about such things. I suspect bio-medical/brain chemistry issues are much more common than is generally recognized. I manage a lot of my issues in part with diet. I think a lot more can be done. But I don't know how to get the word out.
- goshx 13y agoThis reminds me of: http://patientslikeme.com http://patientslikeme.com
- vellum 13y agoMedical sites like this should really use https by default.
- goshx 13y agoIt does, when you login.
- cypherpunks01 13y agoHowever, POSTing from a http login page to https "logged in" page opens you up to javascript injection attacks that can sniff credentials as you perform the login action. Further, ssl stripping man-in-the-middle attacks on any http page on a site can force your session to remain in cleartext, even if you navigate to a page that's supposed to be encrypted. Your webserver really needs to redirect to https always, to prevent against this.
- rickdale 13y agoTerribly sorry for your loss. My condolences and sympathy are with you and your family. And I mean that for real. HN has been there for me through death and we are here for you too bro.
- EMRo 13y agoThanks for that. I really appreciate it.
- ghswa 13y agoSo sorry for your loss EMRo. If I were anywhere nearby I'd have come along to the memorial service but the Atlantic is quite big... I hope the service goes well for you all. Sadly the troll(s) in this thread are demonstrating the kind of prejudice that can make it difficult to have a serious discussion about the more immediate problems faced by people suffering from mental health problems.
- pserwylo 13y agoThere is an organisation called BlueHackers.org [0] which was started at the Open Source Developers Conference. It has a strong presence at linux.conf.au as well. The organisation started from a very brief lightning talk that went something along the lines of (me paraphrasing from memory): "Who here in this room has experienced depression?" (for which the person asking the question put their hand up. After a few seconds, quite a few people in the crowd had their hands up. "Look around, I want you to know that you are not the only ones who experience this, and there are always people willing to talk." One of the ideas they have is, for anybody who is willing, to put a BlueHackers sticker on their laptop. This little gesture is more than just a decal though, because it informs other hackers that you understand that if they are feeling depressed, they don't need to deal with it on their own. You are telling them that you are willing to discuss anything with them, especially if they are feeling down. I have had the sticker on my laptop for over two years now. Although I haven't had anybody recognise it, or comment on it, or indeed discuss any issues with me as a consequence of it, and although I myself have been lucky enough not to have to experience depression, I am absolutely, 100% willing to respond to anybody who wishes to chat to me about such issues (on the off chance they recognise the BlueHackers sticker). I would love if this idea took off, so that people all around the world could see that there are so many people who are willing to talk. [0] - http://bluehackers.org/ http://bluehackers.org/
- EMRo 13y agoThis is amazing. Would love to see something like this for wider communities as well. I have a spot picked out on my laptop already.
- sbuccini 13y agoI don't see a place to buy a decal on the site. Can you point me in the right direction? I'd love to become part of the movement.
- pserwylo 13y agoTraditionally, they are handed out for free at conferences. I'm quite confident that if you are going to a conference or a user group, they'd be happy to post some to you (I'm not part of the organisation, just like what they do). If you just want something for your laptop, I suggest printing out on a piece of paper and sticky taping it to your machine[0]. Although a license is not specified, I'm quite confident that from speaking to these people (and their philosophy on open source) they'd be more than happy for people to print and share them. [0] http://bluehackers.org/logos http://bluehackers.org/logos
- leobelle 13y agoWhat a terrible loss. I'm sorry.
- dodyg 13y agoI am sorry for your loss. My friend committed suicide in a very public way almost three years ago. She was at that the time just completed her master degree, got a high paying job, recently married and fund-raised thousands of dollars for charity. She was pretty much in the traditional 'well on her way' trajectory that many people are dreaming of. Suicide is hard to understand.
- einhverfr 13y agoVery sorry for your loss. I have not lost family to suicide but I have lost two friends to this. There's nothing else to say really.
- armini 13y agoI'm extremely sorry for your loss EMRo. I'm not aware of your brothers mental health issues but I can certainty relate. If I find that my mental health is deteriorating I try to do two things. 1- Start the process of cognitive creativity to stimulate my mind 2- Reach out to the world by attempting to solve someones problems By taking focus away from my world and looking at others, I can better come to self realization and my drive to good use by connecting with others. Often when times are hard you just need to reach out and get a response from anyone. I decided to make this website http://boopoohoo.com http://boopoohoo.com that allows for that feedback loop I need to keep going. I don't know the people there and it doesn't get all that much traffic but I check it daily just encase someone has left me a message. A simple thing such as telling a total stranger your opinion on a delama they are having can make a world of difference in their day. If you ever need to reach out, I'm happy to help.....
- EMRo 13y agoHey thanks for sharing your story. My brother was just starting a blog and hoping to share his ideas with others. He was an avid problem solver and I wish he had found ways to reel himself back in like you did. Will check out your site!
- hawkharris 13y agoThis story about your brother's struggle was moving...I'm sorry to hear about your loss. Mental health-related causes are personal to me as well. I think you touched on one of the biggest issues: the stereotype that people with mental health problems appear different and have a lower social status. As your story illustrates, the conditions affect all sorts of people, including those who are smart, successful and career-oriented. Many people fail to recognize the severity of psychological problems because they're too busy looking at superficial measures of well being: a person's career, his or her physical appearance, etc. But depression has made some of us feel as if we're in a deep fog or a war zone, even if, on the surface, we live in nice neighborhoods and succeed in the workplace. The key is to be more vocal about this struggle beneath the surface — and to speak up very soon. In my observation, the earlier in life a person can overcome depression, the greater his or her chances of becoming happy and stable. Kudos on taking the initiative to speak up about this important issue and responding constructively to such as a great loss.
- EMRo 13y ago"Many people fail to recognize the severity of psychological problems because they're too busy looking at superficial measures of well being: a person's career, his or her physical appearance, etc. But depression has made some of us feel as if we're in a deep fog or a war zone, even if, on the surface, we live in nice neighborhoods and succeed in the workplace." THIS. Being vocal about the struggle is so crucial. My family had no clue what to even look for when these issues started cropping up much less how to get him help. By the time we got him the level of help he needed he had already been in the throes of deep depression and anxiety. Thanks for your kind words.
- wiredfool 13y agoI'm sorry for your loss. We lost my sister to depression about 6 years ago. Superficially, life was fine -- good career, no money issues, good friends. But she was carrying baggage around from years earlier, when she was overworked and overloaded in grad school. (In a lab notorious for overwork, and unfortunately, suicide.) She was told she was depressed then, but no one really got the scope of it. I don't know why she wasn't getting treatment years later, other than things seemed to be going alright. There were a couple of things, that later, seem to be really key. Had we known, or understood, I think things might have been different.
- EMRo 13y agoI wanted to take a minute to just say that this thread has moved me to tears. Firstly, people sharing their story. This is exactly what Steve wanted, to share his story, his ideas. Sharing the story is so important to removing the stigma around mental health. It warms my heart to see people with the courage to tell others about their struggles (and then it double-warms my heart to see other people supporting them!!) Secondly, the sheer support for him. He was a quiet person but a mental giant. Just to have so many people acknowledge him is truly beautiful for me and my family.
- nraynaud 13y agoI don't get what is brother suffered of, how it's linked to his death and what's the call to action is. But I'm sorry someone died.
- TWAndrews 13y agoReally sorry for your loss.
- TWAndrews 13y agoReally sorry for your loss.
- scrrr 13y agoThis was well written. It also sounds like suicide and I can't imagine how one must feel to do such a thing. But it reminds me that despite all cool toys and great achievements, what really matters in this life is others we can talk to and rely on. And this shouldn't only include friends and family but society as a whole.
- wowsig 13y agoI was caught thinking whether he committed suicide. It is a brave idea to discuss the intimate details of such a grave news, but transparency to the last mile will only help others a little more.
- ececconi 13y agoSo sorry for your loss. I lost my father about seven years ago. The time following that period was excruciating. It sounds like your mindset is in the right direction. Just make sure to surround yourself with people that support you. Here's my story. If you ever need to bounce ideas back and forth or just need someone to talk to, send me a message via twitter and we can take it offline. https://medium.com/philosophy-and-psychology/97b44f17cd81 https://medium.com/philosophy-and-psychology/97b44f17cd81
- dfraser992 13y agoNo one has posted a link to this poem which I learned about ... many years ago in high school. It has always stayed with me and touches upon the fundamental philosophical issues around suicide - survivor's guilt, the "why?", the essential loneliness of every individual... http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/richard-cory/ http://www.poemhunter.com/poem/richard-cory/