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This is not even close to true among my peer group -- 20- and 30-something, middle class, educated Midwesterners. Nor is it true on any of the message boards I

by drcube 13y ago

This is not even close to true among my peer group -- 20- and 30-something, middle class, educated Midwesterners. Nor is it true on any of the message boards I frequent online. So this may be an interesting anthropological datum about some segment of the population (teenagers? the poor? uneducated? the author and his wife?), but it doesn't generalize. Punctuation is important, and sufficiently literate people recognize that. Since our society is getting more literate (or at least compared to a hundred years ago, not sure if literacy has been improving lately), I imagine this phenomenon is getting less likely, not more.

mrjatx 13y ago
I'm at the end (29) of your group and most of us (my personal peers) very rarely use punctuation in informal conversations (AIM, irc, hipchat). Assuming it's a literacy issue is a bit offensive. My formal email/hackernews/reddit etiquette has absolutely nothing to do with my informal etiquette. I'd wager most of my personal story is based on growing up surrounded by IRC in elementary school. There are points where I have to rail in my "stream of consciousness" style of type during informal discussions.
- falcolas 13y ago
  I'm in a similar group (I'm not, but my peers are), and we all use full punctuation and proper grammar in our private IMs. We are all fairly well educated, and members of a profession where professional communication is a must. Anecdote is not data, etc.
  - mrjatx 13y ago
    My point was that his attempt to not generalize, whilst generalizing (the poor? the uneducated?) was a bit offensive. I don't really care, just figured I'd point out that there are also educated engineers/architects out there who don't punctuate during informal speak. Personally my feeling on it is- "big fuckin' deal."
- drcube 13y ago
  I wasn't trying to offend. In my experience, the kids who didn't read enough tended to think proper spelling, capitalization and punctuation weren't important, even in the days before texting and IMs. As they grew up and began to use the English language in a less superficial fashion, they started to see the importance of writing properly. I've seen multiple friends go through this phase, at different points in their lives. One (a disabled guy who doesn't work -- he's a great friend though, I hate calling him out), still refuses to spell, capitalize, or punctuate. Everything he writes is just an unformatted list of misspelled words. Not coincidentally, this is the only friend who doesn't read for work or pleasure. All he reads is facebook statuses and the weather channel. Maybe I'm being uncharitable, but in my experience, people start out thinking punctuation and spelling are matters of formality, eschewing it as the concern of old folks and authority figures, but eventually come to realize it is about readability. But maybe there's a social signalling that I'm unfamiliar with: this note is short and readability isnt a concern as much as signalling im not a stuffy outsider While this note (and the rest of this post) is something I want you to consider, and therefore the utmost importance is legibility, readability and clarity.
  - mrjatx 13y ago
    You're bringing up spelling errors and things that have absolutely nothing to do with the argument that the article author presented. They don't mention improper spelling at all. They don't mention education or lack thereof. They're specifically talking about whether or not "personality" should be shown through a message, and if it is or isn't, how it can be misconstrued. As in, to some people (contrary to your experience) seeing a full stop indicates formality, or anger, and to some people not using capitalization and not using punctuation infers a lack of professionalism.
    - drcube 13y ago
      Periods are not optional in readable English. Period. The rest, spelling, capitalization, are all there for the same reason -- readability. Seeing an unpunctuated piece of writing doesn't make me think "Gee, good thing they're not mad at me", it makes me think "Gee, they didn't care enough to make this readable". Which, for some circumstances, is probably fine. I apologize for the "uneducated" remark. You just write differently (albeit only in certain informal contexts apparently) than any literate person I know. The rest of the punctuation-emotion the short article described predates the internet and texting, like using question marks if you're unsure (I turn left here?), or exclamation points for emphasis (Yes!!). What I'm disputing is the "don't bother using a period if you're not angry" phenomenon. It's not my experience that literate adults do this. You and the article disagree. Fair enough. Learn something new everyday.
dwaltrip 13y ago
The author is explicitly referring to instant messaging, SMS, and the like -- modes of communication that are much more similar to spoken conversation than previous forms of text communication. I have definitely seem some of the trends noted by the article. I think you are getting caught up thinking about popular online mediums that can be more similar to letters and publications (you mention message boards). Taking the time for proper punctuation and formatting is more important when using these mediums.

by drcube 13y ago

mrjatx 13y ago

I'm at the end (29) of your group and most of us (my personal peers) very rarely use punctuation in informal conversations (AIM, irc, hipchat). Assuming it's a literacy issue is a bit offensive. My formal email/hackernews/reddit etiquette has absolutely nothing to do with my informal etiquette. I'd wager most of my personal story is based on growing up surrounded by IRC in elementary school. There are points where I have to rail in my "stream of consciousness" style of type during informal discussions.

falcolas 13y ago
I'm in a similar group (I'm not, but my peers are), and we all use full punctuation and proper grammar in our private IMs. We are all fairly well educated, and members of a profession where professional communication is a must. Anecdote is not data, etc.
- mrjatx 13y ago
  My point was that his attempt to not generalize, whilst generalizing (the poor? the uneducated?) was a bit offensive. I don't really care, just figured I'd point out that there are also educated engineers/architects out there who don't punctuate during informal speak. Personally my feeling on it is- "big fuckin' deal."
drcube 13y ago
I wasn't trying to offend. In my experience, the kids who didn't read enough tended to think proper spelling, capitalization and punctuation weren't important, even in the days before texting and IMs. As they grew up and began to use the English language in a less superficial fashion, they started to see the importance of writing properly. I've seen multiple friends go through this phase, at different points in their lives. One (a disabled guy who doesn't work -- he's a great friend though, I hate calling him out), still refuses to spell, capitalize, or punctuate. Everything he writes is just an unformatted list of misspelled words. Not coincidentally, this is the only friend who doesn't read for work or pleasure. All he reads is facebook statuses and the weather channel. Maybe I'm being uncharitable, but in my experience, people start out thinking punctuation and spelling are matters of formality, eschewing it as the concern of old folks and authority figures, but eventually come to realize it is about readability. But maybe there's a social signalling that I'm unfamiliar with: this note is short and readability isnt a concern as much as signalling im not a stuffy outsider While this note (and the rest of this post) is something I want you to consider, and therefore the utmost importance is legibility, readability and clarity.
- mrjatx 13y ago
  You're bringing up spelling errors and things that have absolutely nothing to do with the argument that the article author presented. They don't mention improper spelling at all. They don't mention education or lack thereof. They're specifically talking about whether or not "personality" should be shown through a message, and if it is or isn't, how it can be misconstrued. As in, to some people (contrary to your experience) seeing a full stop indicates formality, or anger, and to some people not using capitalization and not using punctuation infers a lack of professionalism.
  - drcube 13y ago
    Periods are not optional in readable English. Period. The rest, spelling, capitalization, are all there for the same reason -- readability. Seeing an unpunctuated piece of writing doesn't make me think "Gee, good thing they're not mad at me", it makes me think "Gee, they didn't care enough to make this readable". Which, for some circumstances, is probably fine. I apologize for the "uneducated" remark. You just write differently (albeit only in certain informal contexts apparently) than any literate person I know. The rest of the punctuation-emotion the short article described predates the internet and texting, like using question marks if you're unsure (I turn left here?), or exclamation points for emphasis (Yes!!). What I'm disputing is the "don't bother using a period if you're not angry" phenomenon. It's not my experience that literate adults do this. You and the article disagree. Fair enough. Learn something new everyday.

dwaltrip 13y ago

The author is explicitly referring to instant messaging, SMS, and the like -- modes of communication that are much more similar to spoken conversation than previous forms of text communication. I have definitely seem some of the trends noted by the article. I think you are getting caught up thinking about popular online mediums that can be more similar to letters and publications (you mention message boards). Taking the time for proper punctuation and formatting is more important when using these mediums.