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I think what both pieces miss is the behavior that asymmetric anonymity seems to encourage. The ability to lambast public figures from behind a screen of anonym

I think what both pieces miss is the behavior that asymmetric anonymity seems to encourage. The ability to lambast public figures from behind a screen of anonymity seems to bring out the abusive worst in people, and the target has nowhere to run. Conversely, communities in which everyone is anonymous seem to foster a degree of creativity and respect rarely found elsewhere. I think Altman was thinking about the former when he addressed the app, and this piece addresses the latter. But they're different kinds of anonymity. Edit: Asymmetric, not asynchronous.

euoia 13y ago
> asynchronous anonymity Do you mean asymmetric rather than asynchronous?
loupeabody 13y ago
I tend to agree, so long as you meant asymmetric anonymity instead of asynchronous anonymity
- bguthrie 13y ago
  Ugh, fixed. Thanks!
ben0x539 13y ago
> The ability to lambast public figures from behind a screen of anonymity seems to bring out the abusive worst in people, I feel like this point is really overstated. I'm much more worried about people in disadvantaged positions suffering abuse from people who do not even feel the need to be anonymous, because society tolerates their abusive behavior. Comparatively, some anonymous screeching on a message board doesn't seem all that worrying.
- potatolicious 13y ago
  > "Comparatively, some anonymous screeching on a message board doesn't seem all that worrying." If only it was limited to "anonymous screeching". Bear in mind that 4chan invented the term doxxing. We're talking about the anonymous mob inflicting real harm at many levels - from the mildly damaging (review bombs), to the extremely harmful (threats of rape, death, threats against family, home). All of the above has happened, not just on 4chan, but in many other communities that are anonymous. It happens so much we have a term for it. It happens so much that Reddit had to make a site-wide decree to get rid of it (to varying degrees of success). It's a level of abuse that only the deranged would engaged in, or a sufficient combination of sociopathy and anonymity. We're not talking about "John Doe sucks and is a giant asshole!", we're talking about "Hey everyone troll John Doe by calling in bomb threats lolz!". Symmetric anonymity is great. It guarantees that nothing exceeds the bounds of "anonymous screeching" as you put it. Asymmetric anonymity allows one side to attack a target that has no recourse whatsoever.
  - ben0x539 13y ago
    What I'm saying is that revoking the anonymity of the offenders doesn't seem to do enough to dissuade them.
- wpietri 13y ago
  I would rather you let the people in the disadvantaged positions judge that for themselves. I personally don't worry much about anonymous screeching. But then, I'm a white male with 14 years in SF and a long background in tech. I've got sufficient social and financial capital that some anonymous people being dicks to me is unlikely to make much difference. But that indifference also means I'm unlikely to be a target. Watch any nature channel: predators are careful to select the targets they can most easily hurt. Having talked with people who have been the targets of sufficient internet abuse, I promise: it, as intended, causes real trauma.
DanBC 13y ago
> The ability to lambast public figures from behind a screen of anonymity seems to bring out the abusive worst in people, You could have left out the "of anonymity" and still have been true.
pamelafox 13y ago
My only experience on 4chan was due to a Google Alert notifying me that I was the subject of a thread on /d/. That thread was the highest density collection of insults about me that I'd ever seen on the net, and sadly, I'm not yet thick-skinned enough to entirely ignore the "comments on the internet." When I see things like that, or comments on youtube videos of my talks, I sometimes think "maybe I should retreat and make myself not such a visible target." But I stay because I feel like I'm meant to be a role model for my gender, and people seem to like to hear the things I say. Or at least, I stay for now. I get the impression that communities like this feel that people put themselves out there purely for their own benefit, and therefore they have the right to attack them, because they are asking for it. I think many of us never asked for it, but given the pros/cons, we stick with it. There are definitely cons, though. I don't see how to prevent anonymous communities from lambasting public figures, and don't think they should necessarily be prevented. But it sure would be nice if they realized that everyone's a person, and nobody likes to wake up to find they've arbitrarily been chosen as the subject of taunts for the day.
- sorahn 13y ago
  Taunting for day is probably the least of your problems. When you make it to meme status, it might be a little harder.
- pervycreeper 13y ago
  >it sure would be nice if they realized that everyone's a person I hope you realize that anonymous comments are also (usually) written by people, and the points of view they express are also worthy of consideration and respect. Making comments which lack a connection to a person's real life identity enables the commenter to use an honest and direct tone, without resorting to passive-aggressive innuendo. Also, people tend to forget that there is an implicit social contract involved in becoming a "public figure", namely, in return for having a platform for disseminating ideas, the people you are able to reach have a right to respond and criticize them (and you) in return. If your ideas are too weak to defend, perhaps they are not deserving of wider attention.
  - prawn 13y ago
camillomiller 13y ago
Digital culture of a nation is fundamental for this to happen. The day before yesterday a 14yo girl took her life here in Italy. She was being cyber-bullied by some other anonymous teenagers on her ask.fm page. I think that's an unfortunate situation that relates more to child care than the Internet, and I know this single event can't be a case against anonymity. It's obviously not a case pro-anonymity either. Try to explain that complexity to my 62yo father that gets angry because people are free to do what they want and be as mean as they can without facing any dire consequence because of the internet. Journalists were not that good at explaining that IPs exist and those people who mocked the girl and told her to take her life will eventually be caught. My father, like the majority of Italian people now gets the idea that ask.fm is a Wild West of anonymity where you can actually say whatever you want. Certainly, it's not that. Yet, it's not a place that "fosters" creativity.

euoia 13y ago

> asynchronous anonymity Do you mean asymmetric rather than asynchronous?

loupeabody 13y ago

I tend to agree, so long as you meant asymmetric anonymity instead of asynchronous anonymity

bguthrie 13y ago
Ugh, fixed. Thanks!

ben0x539 13y ago

> The ability to lambast public figures from behind a screen of anonymity seems to bring out the abusive worst in people, I feel like this point is really overstated. I'm much more worried about people in disadvantaged positions suffering abuse from people who do not even feel the need to be anonymous, because society tolerates their abusive behavior. Comparatively, some anonymous screeching on a message board doesn't seem all that worrying.

potatolicious 13y ago
> "Comparatively, some anonymous screeching on a message board doesn't seem all that worrying." If only it was limited to "anonymous screeching". Bear in mind that 4chan invented the term doxxing. We're talking about the anonymous mob inflicting real harm at many levels - from the mildly damaging (review bombs), to the extremely harmful (threats of rape, death, threats against family, home). All of the above has happened, not just on 4chan, but in many other communities that are anonymous. It happens so much we have a term for it. It happens so much that Reddit had to make a site-wide decree to get rid of it (to varying degrees of success). It's a level of abuse that only the deranged would engaged in, or a sufficient combination of sociopathy and anonymity. We're not talking about "John Doe sucks and is a giant asshole!", we're talking about "Hey everyone troll John Doe by calling in bomb threats lolz!". Symmetric anonymity is great. It guarantees that nothing exceeds the bounds of "anonymous screeching" as you put it. Asymmetric anonymity allows one side to attack a target that has no recourse whatsoever.
- ben0x539 13y ago
  What I'm saying is that revoking the anonymity of the offenders doesn't seem to do enough to dissuade them.
wpietri 13y ago
I would rather you let the people in the disadvantaged positions judge that for themselves. I personally don't worry much about anonymous screeching. But then, I'm a white male with 14 years in SF and a long background in tech. I've got sufficient social and financial capital that some anonymous people being dicks to me is unlikely to make much difference. But that indifference also means I'm unlikely to be a target. Watch any nature channel: predators are careful to select the targets they can most easily hurt. Having talked with people who have been the targets of sufficient internet abuse, I promise: it, as intended, causes real trauma.

DanBC 13y ago

> The ability to lambast public figures from behind a screen of anonymity seems to bring out the abusive worst in people, You could have left out the "of anonymity" and still have been true.

pamelafox 13y ago

My only experience on 4chan was due to a Google Alert notifying me that I was the subject of a thread on /d/. That thread was the highest density collection of insults about me that I'd ever seen on the net, and sadly, I'm not yet thick-skinned enough to entirely ignore the "comments on the internet." When I see things like that, or comments on youtube videos of my talks, I sometimes think "maybe I should retreat and make myself not such a visible target." But I stay because I feel like I'm meant to be a role model for my gender, and people seem to like to hear the things I say. Or at least, I stay for now. I get the impression that communities like this feel that people put themselves out there purely for their own benefit, and therefore they have the right to attack them, because they are asking for it. I think many of us never asked for it, but given the pros/cons, we stick with it. There are definitely cons, though. I don't see how to prevent anonymous communities from lambasting public figures, and don't think they should necessarily be prevented. But it sure would be nice if they realized that everyone's a person, and nobody likes to wake up to find they've arbitrarily been chosen as the subject of taunts for the day.

sorahn 13y ago
Taunting for day is probably the least of your problems. When you make it to meme status, it might be a little harder.
pervycreeper 13y ago
>it sure would be nice if they realized that everyone's a person I hope you realize that anonymous comments are also (usually) written by people, and the points of view they express are also worthy of consideration and respect. Making comments which lack a connection to a person's real life identity enables the commenter to use an honest and direct tone, without resorting to passive-aggressive innuendo. Also, people tend to forget that there is an implicit social contract involved in becoming a "public figure", namely, in return for having a platform for disseminating ideas, the people you are able to reach have a right to respond and criticize them (and you) in return. If your ideas are too weak to defend, perhaps they are not deserving of wider attention.
- prawn 13y ago

camillomiller 13y ago

Digital culture of a nation is fundamental for this to happen. The day before yesterday a 14yo girl took her life here in Italy. She was being cyber-bullied by some other anonymous teenagers on her ask.fm page. I think that's an unfortunate situation that relates more to child care than the Internet, and I know this single event can't be a case against anonymity. It's obviously not a case pro-anonymity either. Try to explain that complexity to my 62yo father that gets angry because people are free to do what they want and be as mean as they can without facing any dire consequence because of the internet. Journalists were not that good at explaining that IPs exist and those people who mocked the girl and told her to take her life will eventually be caught. My father, like the majority of Italian people now gets the idea that ask.fm is a Wild West of anonymity where you can actually say whatever you want. Certainly, it's not that. Yet, it's not a place that "fosters" creativity.