3 ms·

The completely anarcho-capitalist solution is that someone owns the river. If you want to dump into that river, then you have to deal with the owner; if you wan

by boon 13y ago

The completely anarcho-capitalist solution is that someone owns the river. If you want to dump into that river, then you have to deal with the owner; if you want to take from the river, then you have to deal with the owner. The owner would have a vested interest in keeping the water clean for people buying the water coming out of the river. I'm not saying there aren't externalities to free markets, I think there are. I just don't think government is any better at dealing with them than markets. Friedman always says it better: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHFIbfUi5rw http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHFIbfUi5rw

dragontamer 13y ago
You do realize that your "Anarcho-capitalist" solution describes the EPA's history. Precisely the moment when the US Government declared ownership of the Mississippi River, and all federal lands under its protection. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/33/652 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/33/652 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_National_River_and_Recreation_Area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_National_River_and_... Your solution is really called "internalizing the externality", and a near hundred-year-old analysis can be found in Coase's Theorem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_theorem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_theorem Your solution requires "some entity" to create the concept of ownership, and then sell pieces of the shared resource to other people. You ensure that an owner exists for every part of the river, and then you get an economically optimal solution. But WHO declares ownership? WHO enforces this ownership? If you believe in "private protection agencies" and "private courts", it is obvious that ownership of "The River" should be settled in the "private courts". Eventually, you start building an entity functions exactly like the current US Government (except you use Libertarian friendly words to describe it). So please, describe to me a technique that isn't currently being used by the US Government to solve the problem of Externalities. Otherwise, you end up just describing our current Governing philosophy.
- boon 13y ago
  That's fine. I don't care about convincing you. I care about convincing people who have the same perspective on individual freedom that I do that are reading this thread. I guess if there's no convincing you, then your open-mindedness claim dies with this discussion. Toodle-oo.
  - dragontamer 13y ago
    Your solution was valid. The problem is, you didn't realize that the US Government already is doing what you're describing. You're calling me close minded, when YOU are the one walking away from this conversation. As I said, you gave a valid solution, but this solution you're talking about requires a Government. But if you don't feel like discussing it... sure, c ya later. I will say that this is the first time someone has called me "close minded" for calling their solution analogous to one of the most economically stable solutions known.
    - boon 13y ago
      I appreciate you haggling over the definition of government. The difference between a government and a private entity in this situation is that the government can force you to pay taxes to pay for this river management whether you interact with the river or not, or else you get imprisoned. On the other hand, if you don't want to interact with the private owner of the river, then you don't have to. The world is round; go the other way. The river is only so long; go around it. The river is on the surface of the planet; fly above it. Now, I have NOT said that I subscribe to a full-on anarcho-capitalist system; I mainly understand the theory behind it, and think that it makes the best theory ON WHICH TO BASE A PRACTICAL SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT. I do think government is needed for some things. I'm a huge fan of our original form of government in the US, namely federalism — though I'd have some cuts I'd make there too. And I mainly felt like leaving this conversation because you seemingly try to insist that I don't know what I'm talking about. I do know what I'm talking about. Just because you don't agree with me, or you feel you've thought about this more than me doesn't make it so. Did you even watch the video of Milton Friedman on market failures? He left it open at the end to say there are times where government might be best, but you cannot immediately and automatically say that government is better — which is exactly what the progressive movement in this country tends to claim.
      - dragontamer 13y ago
        If you and I agree that pure theoretical forms of government have flaws, then we are in agreement. This subthread started because someone disagreed with the following words: "Furthermore, it has been proven that ALL pure systems are imperfect." I hold no qualms against Anarcho-capitalism, especially today as deregulation laws are beginning to show promise (New Jersey has some deregulation laws that seem to improve upon utilities like power and gas). It is when a purist comes up, and claims that it is the solution to all problems that I become a bit antsy. Sometimes, Deregualtion is the key to solving problems. Other times, we need regulation. Pick and choose the philosophy for the situation, there is no silver bullet.

by boon 13y ago

dragontamer 13y ago

You do realize that your "Anarcho-capitalist" solution describes the EPA's history. Precisely the moment when the US Government declared ownership of the Mississippi River, and all federal lands under its protection. http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/33/652 http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/33/652 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_National_River_and_Recreation_Area http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mississippi_National_River_and_... Your solution is really called "internalizing the externality", and a near hundred-year-old analysis can be found in Coase's Theorem. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_theorem http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coase_theorem Your solution requires "some entity" to create the concept of ownership, and then sell pieces of the shared resource to other people. You ensure that an owner exists for every part of the river, and then you get an economically optimal solution. But WHO declares ownership? WHO enforces this ownership? If you believe in "private protection agencies" and "private courts", it is obvious that ownership of "The River" should be settled in the "private courts". Eventually, you start building an entity functions exactly like the current US Government (except you use Libertarian friendly words to describe it). So please, describe to me a technique that isn't currently being used by the US Government to solve the problem of Externalities. Otherwise, you end up just describing our current Governing philosophy.

boon 13y ago
That's fine. I don't care about convincing you. I care about convincing people who have the same perspective on individual freedom that I do that are reading this thread. I guess if there's no convincing you, then your open-mindedness claim dies with this discussion. Toodle-oo.
- dragontamer 13y ago
  Your solution was valid. The problem is, you didn't realize that the US Government already is doing what you're describing. You're calling me close minded, when YOU are the one walking away from this conversation. As I said, you gave a valid solution, but this solution you're talking about requires a Government. But if you don't feel like discussing it... sure, c ya later. I will say that this is the first time someone has called me "close minded" for calling their solution analogous to one of the most economically stable solutions known.
  - boon 13y ago
    I appreciate you haggling over the definition of government. The difference between a government and a private entity in this situation is that the government can force you to pay taxes to pay for this river management whether you interact with the river or not, or else you get imprisoned. On the other hand, if you don't want to interact with the private owner of the river, then you don't have to. The world is round; go the other way. The river is only so long; go around it. The river is on the surface of the planet; fly above it. Now, I have NOT said that I subscribe to a full-on anarcho-capitalist system; I mainly understand the theory behind it, and think that it makes the best theory ON WHICH TO BASE A PRACTICAL SYSTEM OF GOVERNMENT. I do think government is needed for some things. I'm a huge fan of our original form of government in the US, namely federalism — though I'd have some cuts I'd make there too. And I mainly felt like leaving this conversation because you seemingly try to insist that I don't know what I'm talking about. I do know what I'm talking about. Just because you don't agree with me, or you feel you've thought about this more than me doesn't make it so. Did you even watch the video of Milton Friedman on market failures? He left it open at the end to say there are times where government might be best, but you cannot immediately and automatically say that government is better — which is exactly what the progressive movement in this country tends to claim.
    - dragontamer 13y ago
      If you and I agree that pure theoretical forms of government have flaws, then we are in agreement. This subthread started because someone disagreed with the following words: "Furthermore, it has been proven that ALL pure systems are imperfect." I hold no qualms against Anarcho-capitalism, especially today as deregulation laws are beginning to show promise (New Jersey has some deregulation laws that seem to improve upon utilities like power and gas). It is when a purist comes up, and claims that it is the solution to all problems that I become a bit antsy. Sometimes, Deregualtion is the key to solving problems. Other times, we need regulation. Pick and choose the philosophy for the situation, there is no silver bullet.