6 ms·

I hope they're correcting for the reversed causation -- i.e., if you notice you're getting pretty overweight, you're more likely to avoid full-fat yoghurt, wher

by jtheory 13y ago

I hope they're correcting for the reversed causation -- i.e., if you notice you're getting pretty overweight, you're more likely to avoid full-fat yoghurt, whereas if you are staying lean (for completely unrelated reasons), you're not nearly as likely to worry about it. There's no mention of ruling this out in the article, though I didn't read the study itself to see how/if they addressed it.

netnichols 13y ago
Exactly. I kept waiting for that to come up in the story and it never did. Would love for someone less lazy than myself to look at the actual paper and find out if this is addressed.
alexc05 13y ago
Chemically it is insulin that triggers the signal in our body to store fat. Carbohydrates trigger a large insulin response while fats cause no insulin response (protein is somewhere in the middle) The nutrients in dairy are all fat soluble and so there some things that specifically target the excretion of fat from our systems. Drinking full fat milk will have more of those nutrients as it comes in bound to fat. There may be some amount of causation going on because of milk (Dairy calcium specifically). BBC documentary talks about the calcium thing here:http://vimeo.com/m/18339967 http://vimeo.com/m/18339967 Gary taubes http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lDneyrETR2o http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lDneyrETR2o and Robert lustig http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM talk about the carbohydrate hypothesis
- jp555 13y ago
  > Chemically it is insulin that triggers the signal in our body to store fat. A misleading oversimplification. Maintaing a net-energy-surplus is the causes of fat storage. Insulin is just one piece of the mechanics of how surplus energy gets stored as fat. There's no need to worry at all about insulin; just don't eat too much, and you don't get fat. > Carbohydrates trigger a large insulin response while fats cause no insulin response (protein is somewhere in the middle) ORLY? Show me a biochemistry text book that dares to tout this nonsense. Bust insulin mythology: http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319 http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319 Gary Taubes again.... sigh.... > The nutrients in dairy are all fat soluble Sorry but I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.
  - ajcarpy2005 13y ago
    /// The results showed that both protein and fat reduced the glycemic response elicited by oral glucose in normal humans. The effects of protein and fat were independent of each other, but gram-for-gram, protein had a 2 to 3 times larger effect than fat. Fat reduced glycemic responses to a greater extent in subjects with low FPI, whereas protein had more effect in subjects with a high WC and a high intake of dietary fiber. SOURCE: http://m.jn.nutrition.org/content/136/10/2506.full http://m.jn.nutrition.org/content/136/10/2506.full /// These data indicate that protein given with glucose will increase insulin secretion and reduce the plasma glucose rise in at least some type II diabetic persons. SOURCE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6389060 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6389060 It didn't take me long to find these two papers which find evidence of the antagonistic effect on glucose & insulin by the consumption of fat and protein. It doesn't look like nonsense to me. Fat soluble vitamins and even chemicals like Caffeine or even Glutathione are absorbed more eficiently when mixed with fat. Not that nature is perfect but it does get a lot of things right...whole fat milk seems to likely be more optimal than reduced fat milk.
    - jp555 13y ago
      http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf#page=1&.. http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf#page=1&.... The data shows beef causes a much larger insulinogenic response than rice. There is little there isolating fat, but your first link is interesting.
      - ajcarpy2005 13y ago
        Highly interesting! This is new info to me. It seems the Insulin Index may be a more reliable predictor of the insulin response of foods than either the glycemic index or the glycemic load index. You mentioned there is very little other than fat in beef but don't forget that there's mostly protein. Now we just need studies showing which Amino Acids are the 'worst offenders.' I tried finding any info about whether meat contains any actual insulin based on a hunch/hypothesis but did not find anything. Anyway, from what I've read, both blood glucose & insulin should be kept at reasonably stable levels. (ie. not too high) Therefore, maybe a combination of glycemic load index and insulin index would be helpful. Also, knowing now the effect of beef on insulin, I think it means we should be careful to eat small portions of meat or limit how often we eat meat. I'm really amazed that these findings are only now being made.
- Consultant32452 13y ago
  I was going to suggest this.. that people replace high fat foods with high carb foods which translate into gaining more weight. I've long said that fat doesn't make you fat, it clogs your arteries. Though the latter part of that is now up for debate based on more recent studies. You out-scienced me though.
  - jp555 13y ago
    Fat does not "clog your arteries". The buildup of plaque in arteries is a complex process. But it has much more to do with chronic inflammation and the immune system's response to it than dietary fat or cholesterol. In fact there is ZERO causative relationship between increased intake of dietary-cholesterol (e.g. lots of egg yolks) and increased blood serum cholesterol. However there is a significant causative relationship between becoming overweight and increased blood-serum cholesterol. It's more that being fat "clogs your arteries" than eating fat.
maxerickson 13y ago
They say The associations between dairy fat intake and central obesity were consistent across body mass index categories at baseline.
- jtheory 13y ago
  Right, "associations" = correlation. Correlation doesn't imply anything about causation, though the article itself is all about how maybe full-fat dairy causes lower obesity. My point is that perhaps obesity causes less consumption of full-fat dairy (because "I'm getting kind of overweight; I'll get the low-fat one") OR there may be another factor that's causing both effects -- e.g., organic yoghurt is much more likely to be "natural" (full-fat), and people who eat a lot of organic food as part of choosing their diet tend to eat heathier (less fattening) meals. I'm making both of these up -- but both situations explain a correlation/association between full-fat dairy and lower obesity without full-fat dairy causing lower obesity. A good study needs to rule this kind of stuff out to be useful. Often, unfortunately, the study itself mentions various confounding factors, alternate explanations, etc., and the reporting just ignores all that, cherry-picks the desired "result" and poses the headline as a question to be safe.
  - maxerickson 13y ago
    The statement means they observed the effects in people that were not obese at the beginning of the study!
    - jtheory 13y ago
      Sorry, I may be missing something; I don't understand how this addresses the correlation vs. causality problem. If they're tracking two measurements, and observing a correlation, "people who get obese stop eating full fat yoghurt" needs to be ruled out of the effect, somehow.
      - maxerickson 13y ago
        Few of the subjects changed their diets during the 12 years of the study. But why don't you just go find an explicit flaw in their methodology, rather than assuming there must be an obvious one there?

by jtheory 13y ago

netnichols 13y ago

Exactly. I kept waiting for that to come up in the story and it never did. Would love for someone less lazy than myself to look at the actual paper and find out if this is addressed.

alexc05 13y ago

Chemically it is insulin that triggers the signal in our body to store fat. Carbohydrates trigger a large insulin response while fats cause no insulin response (protein is somewhere in the middle) The nutrients in dairy are all fat soluble and so there some things that specifically target the excretion of fat from our systems. Drinking full fat milk will have more of those nutrients as it comes in bound to fat. There may be some amount of causation going on because of milk (Dairy calcium specifically). BBC documentary talks about the calcium thing here:http://vimeo.com/m/18339967 http://vimeo.com/m/18339967 Gary taubes http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lDneyrETR2o http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=lDneyrETR2o and Robert lustig http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=dBnniua6-oM talk about the carbohydrate hypothesis

jp555 13y ago
> Chemically it is insulin that triggers the signal in our body to store fat. A misleading oversimplification. Maintaing a net-energy-surplus is the causes of fat storage. Insulin is just one piece of the mechanics of how surplus energy gets stored as fat. There's no need to worry at all about insulin; just don't eat too much, and you don't get fat. > Carbohydrates trigger a large insulin response while fats cause no insulin response (protein is somewhere in the middle) ORLY? Show me a biochemistry text book that dares to tout this nonsense. Bust insulin mythology: http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319 http://weightology.net/weightologyweekly/?page_id=319 Gary Taubes again.... sigh.... > The nutrients in dairy are all fat soluble Sorry but I don't think those words mean what you think they mean.
- ajcarpy2005 13y ago
  /// The results showed that both protein and fat reduced the glycemic response elicited by oral glucose in normal humans. The effects of protein and fat were independent of each other, but gram-for-gram, protein had a 2 to 3 times larger effect than fat. Fat reduced glycemic responses to a greater extent in subjects with low FPI, whereas protein had more effect in subjects with a high WC and a high intake of dietary fiber. SOURCE: http://m.jn.nutrition.org/content/136/10/2506.full http://m.jn.nutrition.org/content/136/10/2506.full /// These data indicate that protein given with glucose will increase insulin secretion and reduce the plasma glucose rise in at least some type II diabetic persons. SOURCE: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6389060 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/6389060 It didn't take me long to find these two papers which find evidence of the antagonistic effect on glucose & insulin by the consumption of fat and protein. It doesn't look like nonsense to me. Fat soluble vitamins and even chemicals like Caffeine or even Glutathione are absorbed more eficiently when mixed with fat. Not that nature is perfect but it does get a lot of things right...whole fat milk seems to likely be more optimal than reduced fat milk.
  - jp555 13y ago
    http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf#page=1&.. http://ajcn.nutrition.org/content/66/5/1264.full.pdf#page=1&.... The data shows beef causes a much larger insulinogenic response than rice. There is little there isolating fat, but your first link is interesting.
    - ajcarpy2005 13y ago
      Highly interesting! This is new info to me. It seems the Insulin Index may be a more reliable predictor of the insulin response of foods than either the glycemic index or the glycemic load index. You mentioned there is very little other than fat in beef but don't forget that there's mostly protein. Now we just need studies showing which Amino Acids are the 'worst offenders.' I tried finding any info about whether meat contains any actual insulin based on a hunch/hypothesis but did not find anything. Anyway, from what I've read, both blood glucose & insulin should be kept at reasonably stable levels. (ie. not too high) Therefore, maybe a combination of glycemic load index and insulin index would be helpful. Also, knowing now the effect of beef on insulin, I think it means we should be careful to eat small portions of meat or limit how often we eat meat. I'm really amazed that these findings are only now being made.
Consultant32452 13y ago
I was going to suggest this.. that people replace high fat foods with high carb foods which translate into gaining more weight. I've long said that fat doesn't make you fat, it clogs your arteries. Though the latter part of that is now up for debate based on more recent studies. You out-scienced me though.
- jp555 13y ago
  Fat does not "clog your arteries". The buildup of plaque in arteries is a complex process. But it has much more to do with chronic inflammation and the immune system's response to it than dietary fat or cholesterol. In fact there is ZERO causative relationship between increased intake of dietary-cholesterol (e.g. lots of egg yolks) and increased blood serum cholesterol. However there is a significant causative relationship between becoming overweight and increased blood-serum cholesterol. It's more that being fat "clogs your arteries" than eating fat.

maxerickson 13y ago

They say The associations between dairy fat intake and central obesity were consistent across body mass index categories at baseline.

jtheory 13y ago
Right, "associations" = correlation. Correlation doesn't imply anything about causation, though the article itself is all about how maybe full-fat dairy causes lower obesity. My point is that perhaps obesity causes less consumption of full-fat dairy (because "I'm getting kind of overweight; I'll get the low-fat one") OR there may be another factor that's causing both effects -- e.g., organic yoghurt is much more likely to be "natural" (full-fat), and people who eat a lot of organic food as part of choosing their diet tend to eat heathier (less fattening) meals. I'm making both of these up -- but both situations explain a correlation/association between full-fat dairy and lower obesity without full-fat dairy causing lower obesity. A good study needs to rule this kind of stuff out to be useful. Often, unfortunately, the study itself mentions various confounding factors, alternate explanations, etc., and the reporting just ignores all that, cherry-picks the desired "result" and poses the headline as a question to be safe.
- maxerickson 13y ago
  The statement means they observed the effects in people that were not obese at the beginning of the study!
  - jtheory 13y ago
    Sorry, I may be missing something; I don't understand how this addresses the correlation vs. causality problem. If they're tracking two measurements, and observing a correlation, "people who get obese stop eating full fat yoghurt" needs to be ruled out of the effect, somehow.
    - maxerickson 13y ago
      Few of the subjects changed their diets during the 12 years of the study. But why don't you just go find an explicit flaw in their methodology, rather than assuming there must be an obvious one there?