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I honestly don't care about the NSA stuff. There are real issues in society that I actually get fired up about (poverty, education, intellectual property, and

by Suncho 13y ago

I honestly don't care about the NSA stuff. There are real issues in society that I actually get fired up about (poverty, education, intellectual property, and the like). Government surveillance isn't one of them. Privacy isn't really one of them. SOPA and ProtectIP really mattered to me. This didn't.

marshray 13y ago
Surveillance is censorship.
- ZenoArrow 13y ago
  Surveillance isn't censorship, but it is an effective tool to aid in censorship.
  - kyboren 13y ago
    Mass surveillance creates a chilling effect on free speech; it causes people to self-censor. It's just as effective at censorship as requiring a license to print a newspaper--something our Bill of Rights was explicitly designed to avoid.
    - vbuterin 13y ago
      Not by itself it doesn't. Google does mass surveillance on us all the time, and most people barely register that. What creates the chilling effect is mass surveillance _combined with power_. That's what people are scared of - not just that some magic oracle somewhere knows what they're talking with their friends about, what their job is, what microscopic laws they're breaking and who they're cheating on their spouses with, but the fact that the entity doing the surveillance is also the entity that has a near-unlimited capability to do essentially whatever they want to them. That's where the self-censorship comes in.
      - marshray 13y ago
        You've never thought to yourself: "Ooh I'd better not Google for that" ?
    - ZenoArrow 13y ago
      I can watch you without trying to stop you. The two are often linked, but they're not the same.
      - orthecreedence 13y ago
        The act of watching someone changes their behavior. How would you work differently with a crowd of people standing behind you and shadowing you the whole day? How would you drive differently if a cop followed you everywhere you go? It's possible to be watched without changing your behavior, but is beyond the capability of most humans.
        ZenoArrow 13y ago
        I don't know you, but I'm guessing you use at least some online services that are extensively monitored. Do you honestly, and I mean honestly not just speaking for the sake of argument, consider surveillance before you send emails, or chat on social networks, or search on a search engine? The surveillance online is largely transparent, most people barely think about it, even after the Snowden whistleblowing for most people it was back to business as usual pretty quickly. According to your comments such behaviour is not possible, but I've seen it.
        marshray 13y ago
        > Do you honestly, and I mean honestly not just speaking for the sake of argument, consider surveillance before you send emails, or chat on social networks, or search on a search engine? Yes. Do you belch out loud at school/church/office? Make other silly noises from your body? Do you scratch your nose when someone has a camera out? I think you probably try not to. Now how about when you know you're alone, or at home? I certainly do. It's a basic part of being human. As social animals, we humans have inbuilt awareness of social and private contexts. Some time in both contexts is necessary to be a well-adjusted adjusted individual, and providing room for individuals to have a bit of privacy is essential for a healthy society. A human's well-being depends on having a break from constant surveillance. We can't be 'on stage' our whole lives.

by Suncho 13y ago

marshray 13y ago

Surveillance is censorship.

ZenoArrow 13y ago
Surveillance isn't censorship, but it is an effective tool to aid in censorship.
- kyboren 13y ago
  Mass surveillance creates a chilling effect on free speech; it causes people to self-censor. It's just as effective at censorship as requiring a license to print a newspaper--something our Bill of Rights was explicitly designed to avoid.
  - vbuterin 13y ago
    Not by itself it doesn't. Google does mass surveillance on us all the time, and most people barely register that. What creates the chilling effect is mass surveillance _combined with power_. That's what people are scared of - not just that some magic oracle somewhere knows what they're talking with their friends about, what their job is, what microscopic laws they're breaking and who they're cheating on their spouses with, but the fact that the entity doing the surveillance is also the entity that has a near-unlimited capability to do essentially whatever they want to them. That's where the self-censorship comes in.
    - marshray 13y ago
      You've never thought to yourself: "Ooh I'd better not Google for that" ?
  - ZenoArrow 13y ago
    I can watch you without trying to stop you. The two are often linked, but they're not the same.
    - orthecreedence 13y ago
      The act of watching someone changes their behavior. How would you work differently with a crowd of people standing behind you and shadowing you the whole day? How would you drive differently if a cop followed you everywhere you go? It's possible to be watched without changing your behavior, but is beyond the capability of most humans.
      - ZenoArrow 13y ago
        I don't know you, but I'm guessing you use at least some online services that are extensively monitored. Do you honestly, and I mean honestly not just speaking for the sake of argument, consider surveillance before you send emails, or chat on social networks, or search on a search engine? The surveillance online is largely transparent, most people barely think about it, even after the Snowden whistleblowing for most people it was back to business as usual pretty quickly. According to your comments such behaviour is not possible, but I've seen it.
        marshray 13y ago
        > Do you honestly, and I mean honestly not just speaking for the sake of argument, consider surveillance before you send emails, or chat on social networks, or search on a search engine? Yes. Do you belch out loud at school/church/office? Make other silly noises from your body? Do you scratch your nose when someone has a camera out? I think you probably try not to. Now how about when you know you're alone, or at home? I certainly do. It's a basic part of being human. As social animals, we humans have inbuilt awareness of social and private contexts. Some time in both contexts is necessary to be a well-adjusted adjusted individual, and providing room for individuals to have a bit of privacy is essential for a healthy society. A human's well-being depends on having a break from constant surveillance. We can't be 'on stage' our whole lives.