3 ms·

So downloading a 100KB extension for a browser which you use for downloading stuff all the time is a "huge barrier"? Wow, talk about a 1st world problem. And

So downloading a 100KB extension for a browser which you use for downloading stuff all the time is a "huge barrier"? Wow, talk about a 1st world problem. And "when I teach ruby", "well ok, now download xcode"... ok, Xcode is a 2.5GB download, but it is a one click download and install via App Store. And really? Xcode for Ruby? Are you really doing that?

thedufer 13y ago
I write JavaScript all day and the first step is to download XCode. I don't know if this is his reason, but installing XCode is the best way to get all the developer tools installed (clang, for example).
djur 13y ago
Xcode is necessary because Apple distributes an operating system without a C compiler, and standard Ruby development requires a C compiler. Why Apple distributes an incomplete operating system by default, and why they distribute their development environment as one monolithic chunk as opposed to a set of packages, is anyone's guess.
- United857 13y ago
  Last I checked, Windows also doesn't ship with a C compiler by default. Even some Linux distros don't have it in the default install.
  - djur 13y ago
    Windows is also an incomplete operating system as sold, as are those Linux distros. For a long time Windows was outright defective because there was no compiler available without paying hundreds of additional dollars to Microsoft, but they do have a free toolchain now.
- mweibel 13y ago
  Well i guess because 80% of mac users will never need a compiler. Also instead of downloading the whole xcode you can download the xcode cli tools.
- grey-area 13y ago
  standard Ruby development requires a C compiler Mac OS X comes with Ruby already installed, and afaik you don't need a C compiler to learn standard ruby, you'd only need it for certain gems (which want to build native extensions).
  - djur 13y ago
    OS X comes with an obsolete version of Ruby which almost nobody uses. Standard Ruby development generally involves both a Ruby version manager (rvm, rbenv, etc.) and the ability to install gems with native extensions.
    - grey-area 13y ago
      OS X comes with an obsolete version of Ruby which almost nobody uses. The latest version of OS X comes with Ruby 2.0, which is hardly obsolete, and that or Ruby 1.8.7 (from earlier OS X) is totally fine for learning to use Ruby, which is how this thread started. Claiming you need to start to learn by installing xCode or the tools is false - there is lots more to ruby than installing rvm, rails and sql gems etc. Beginners could go a long way without requiring non-native gems, and by the time they get to that stage, installing Ruby 2.0 should be a breeze, whatever route you choose. Probably over 95% of mac users would never use the compiler, so I see why they left it out. Installing it is really very easy anyway, command line or with xcode.
- program 13y ago
  OS X is an Open Brand UNIX 03 Registered Product since Leopard and given this it can be considered "complete." It isn't shipped with a compiler but your can install the cmdline tools (without all the XCode bundle) typing: xcode-select --install on (Mavericks) Terminal.
nitrogen 13y ago
When you're teaching someone a subject that they expect to be challenging and aren't forced to learn, any extra barrier can dissuade them entirely. Think of the learning process like the conversion funnel for a web site.

thedufer 13y ago

I write JavaScript all day and the first step is to download XCode. I don't know if this is his reason, but installing XCode is the best way to get all the developer tools installed (clang, for example).

djur 13y ago

Xcode is necessary because Apple distributes an operating system without a C compiler, and standard Ruby development requires a C compiler. Why Apple distributes an incomplete operating system by default, and why they distribute their development environment as one monolithic chunk as opposed to a set of packages, is anyone's guess.

United857 13y ago
Last I checked, Windows also doesn't ship with a C compiler by default. Even some Linux distros don't have it in the default install.
- djur 13y ago
  Windows is also an incomplete operating system as sold, as are those Linux distros. For a long time Windows was outright defective because there was no compiler available without paying hundreds of additional dollars to Microsoft, but they do have a free toolchain now.
mweibel 13y ago
Well i guess because 80% of mac users will never need a compiler. Also instead of downloading the whole xcode you can download the xcode cli tools.
grey-area 13y ago
standard Ruby development requires a C compiler Mac OS X comes with Ruby already installed, and afaik you don't need a C compiler to learn standard ruby, you'd only need it for certain gems (which want to build native extensions).
- djur 13y ago
  OS X comes with an obsolete version of Ruby which almost nobody uses. Standard Ruby development generally involves both a Ruby version manager (rvm, rbenv, etc.) and the ability to install gems with native extensions.
  - grey-area 13y ago
    OS X comes with an obsolete version of Ruby which almost nobody uses. The latest version of OS X comes with Ruby 2.0, which is hardly obsolete, and that or Ruby 1.8.7 (from earlier OS X) is totally fine for learning to use Ruby, which is how this thread started. Claiming you need to start to learn by installing xCode or the tools is false - there is lots more to ruby than installing rvm, rails and sql gems etc. Beginners could go a long way without requiring non-native gems, and by the time they get to that stage, installing Ruby 2.0 should be a breeze, whatever route you choose. Probably over 95% of mac users would never use the compiler, so I see why they left it out. Installing it is really very easy anyway, command line or with xcode.
program 13y ago
OS X is an Open Brand UNIX 03 Registered Product since Leopard and given this it can be considered "complete." It isn't shipped with a compiler but your can install the cmdline tools (without all the XCode bundle) typing: xcode-select --install on (Mavericks) Terminal.

nitrogen 13y ago

When you're teaching someone a subject that they expect to be challenging and aren't forced to learn, any extra barrier can dissuade them entirely. Think of the learning process like the conversion funnel for a web site.