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It's a delicate balance between security and usability. Zooko's triangle applies here. To wit, GPG and client-side SSL certificates have pretty ideal security p

It's a delicate balance between security and usability. Zooko's triangle applies here. To wit, GPG and client-side SSL certificates have pretty ideal security properties, but impose upon the user to manage storing and syncing key material between devices. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zooko%27s_triangle EDIT: Heh. Actually Zooko's doesn't fully apply here, but it's still a fun read. Thanks Perseids and drdaeman. :)

Perseids 13y ago
Zooko's triangle is about secure name systems like DNSSec or Namecoin, not about user logins.
- dllthomas 13y ago
  According to the wiki page, it's "a conjecture for any system for giving names to participants in a network protocol". "Nicknames users choose for themselves" is listed as one example point in the space.
  - drdaeman 13y ago
    From what I've seen Persona is mostly advertised as solving problem with credentials (passwords, OpenIDs, etc.), not nicknames. Actually, I don't think there's anything wrong with nicknames and their lack of global uniqueness. Moreover, I believe it's a good thing.
    - dllthomas 13y ago
      Persona solves the problem of uniquely naming you to the site, on the assumption that you already have a unique email. There's more pieces here with their own issues, but I think Zooko's triangle is still relevant. "Actually, I don't think there's anything wrong with nicknames and their lack of global uniqueness. Moreover, I believe it's a good thing." That depends entirely on the applications you're intending to put them to...
      - drdaeman 13y ago
        > the problem of uniquely naming you to the site Ahem. Did we (consumers, not site owners) really have this problem, to begin with?
        dllthomas 13y ago
        That's irrelevant to whether Zooko's triangle applies, which was all I was weighing in on. That said, yes, consumers totally have this problem. We encounter it visibly every time a username we want is taken when we try to sign up for a site. The effectiveness with which Personal eliminates it entirely, ameliorates it, or merely pushes it off to other parts of the system depends on other details of the service in question. It's also not the only problem Persona purports to solve, simply the relevant one.
drdaeman 13y ago
> Zooko's triangle applies here. Certificates fit into Zooko's triangle just fine. They're decentralized and secure, but those keys don't mean anything to humans. Is lack of human-meaningful global identifier (like an email address) a problem? I believe we're pretty much fine with choosing a name (usually, a pseudonym) when registering with a service. Actually, I believe we even enjoy an ability to name ourselves as we see fit, and there's no real need for human-meaningful global identity identifiers. Or I'm wrong on this matter? > impose upon the user to manage storing and syncing key material between devices I don't see any serious problems with storing keys. Could you explain this a bit more? Did you mean that keystores are less secure than a browser logged into Persona/email account? If so, TPMs/HSMs are also getting more and more widespread (although rarely supported and used in practice, which is regrettable) and can further improve situation with secure key storage. Password sync can be made both usable and reasonably secure (proven both by both Mozilla and Chrome), why key sync can't? One can sync a single key over multiple devices using some kind of key escrow, or trade a bit of convenience for security with the necessity for one-time initial device setup (signing device key with a master key). I'm no security expert, but I think the most problematic part with certificate-based credentials is not syncing or storage but revocation of compromised credentials. But it's the same with passwords, certificates, emails and every other credential system out there.

Perseids 13y ago

Zooko's triangle is about secure name systems like DNSSec or Namecoin, not about user logins.

dllthomas 13y ago
According to the wiki page, it's "a conjecture for any system for giving names to participants in a network protocol". "Nicknames users choose for themselves" is listed as one example point in the space.
- drdaeman 13y ago
  From what I've seen Persona is mostly advertised as solving problem with credentials (passwords, OpenIDs, etc.), not nicknames. Actually, I don't think there's anything wrong with nicknames and their lack of global uniqueness. Moreover, I believe it's a good thing.
  - dllthomas 13y ago
    Persona solves the problem of uniquely naming you to the site, on the assumption that you already have a unique email. There's more pieces here with their own issues, but I think Zooko's triangle is still relevant. "Actually, I don't think there's anything wrong with nicknames and their lack of global uniqueness. Moreover, I believe it's a good thing." That depends entirely on the applications you're intending to put them to...
    - drdaeman 13y ago
      > the problem of uniquely naming you to the site Ahem. Did we (consumers, not site owners) really have this problem, to begin with?
      - dllthomas 13y ago
        That's irrelevant to whether Zooko's triangle applies, which was all I was weighing in on. That said, yes, consumers totally have this problem. We encounter it visibly every time a username we want is taken when we try to sign up for a site. The effectiveness with which Personal eliminates it entirely, ameliorates it, or merely pushes it off to other parts of the system depends on other details of the service in question. It's also not the only problem Persona purports to solve, simply the relevant one.

drdaeman 13y ago

> Zooko's triangle applies here. Certificates fit into Zooko's triangle just fine. They're decentralized and secure, but those keys don't mean anything to humans. Is lack of human-meaningful global identifier (like an email address) a problem? I believe we're pretty much fine with choosing a name (usually, a pseudonym) when registering with a service. Actually, I believe we even enjoy an ability to name ourselves as we see fit, and there's no real need for human-meaningful global identity identifiers. Or I'm wrong on this matter? > impose upon the user to manage storing and syncing key material between devices I don't see any serious problems with storing keys. Could you explain this a bit more? Did you mean that keystores are less secure than a browser logged into Persona/email account? If so, TPMs/HSMs are also getting more and more widespread (although rarely supported and used in practice, which is regrettable) and can further improve situation with secure key storage. Password sync can be made both usable and reasonably secure (proven both by both Mozilla and Chrome), why key sync can't? One can sync a single key over multiple devices using some kind of key escrow, or trade a bit of convenience for security with the necessity for one-time initial device setup (signing device key with a master key). I'm no security expert, but I think the most problematic part with certificate-based credentials is not syncing or storage but revocation of compromised credentials. But it's the same with passwords, certificates, emails and every other credential system out there.