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How smoking weed is still legal for tourists in Amsterdam
- digitalengineer 13y agoDutchmen here. You can grow your own weed as well. Just not more than 5 plants and only for your own consumption. I'm no user, but I understand weed is for tourists and younger kids just chillin'/relaxing. There's a much larger user base for all those chemically created drugs for partying. Lately there's a new thing, it's actually for horses needing surgery and keeps them on their feet. Kids use it to prefent passing out from all the other drugs. Funny thing is: They look like walking zombies stumbling about.
- 013 13y ago>Lately there's a new thing, it's actually for horses needing surgery and keeps them on their feet. Kids use it to prefent passing out from all the other drugs. Funny thing is: They look like walking zombies stumbling about. Ketamine. [0] [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketamine
- nicholassmith 13y agoDoesn't sound like ketamine completely. Whilst it'll zombify you pretty quickly, it won't prevent you from passing out from other drugs as you can 'k-hole' on it pretty quickly and pass out. Butorphanol is what seems more likely from a bit of internet sleuthing (but I imagine it'll have a more jazzy name in the club).
- diydsp 13y agohttp://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Pharms_Butorphanol.shtml http://www.erowid.org/experiences/subs/exp_Pharms_Butorphano... Interesting. It's not available from the front page of erowid, so it must be somewhat new. It doesn't appear to have an interesting street name from this handful of reports. At least its prescription, so it's not some god-awful thing, but it is an opiate, so somewhat dangerous.
- nicholassmith 13y agoIt sounds pretty new, my google search didn't have links to human use newer than about 2/3 years ago.
- 70forty 13y agoKetamine is hardly a new trend in recreational drug use and I've never heard of it being used by anyone to prevent "passing out from all the other drugs". Ketamine in high but still sub-anesthetic doses induces a semi-conscious state referred to as the "k-hole", more or less giving the appearance of being passed out. At lower doses it does strongly effect balance and coordination, so the "stumbling" bit is probably justified. Ketamine is exceptionally safe and relatively non-addictive BTW, though in my experience not all that enjoyable. GP needs to save the horror stories and fear mongering for MDPV, NBOMEes, etc. which arose as alternatives to much safer but highly contraband substances like LSD, MDMA, etc. with difficult-to-source precursors.
- JonnieCache 13y ago>Ketamine is exceptionally safe and relatively non-addictive BTW This is dangerous misinformation. I've had more than one friend almost die from compulsive ketamine use. Just because it might not be physiologically addictive like opiates, doesn't mean that you won't be wiping it from around your nose every morning while you wait for the bus at 8:30 to go to classes, losing all your friends and so much weight that your body starts shutting down completely. People end up needing their bladders removed surgically from the sheer amount of extremely alkaline solutions they are putting into their bodies. Tolerance builds very quickly and with a sharp curve, so users end up having to shovel huge quantities of this very caustic material into their faces just to feel normal. (Thankfully the people I know managed to come back from the brink, but only by completely shutting themselves off from the world for a long time.) The problem is, its effects are "light" enough that it is possible to use it all day every day, and still be functional enough to carry on. People who enjoy the effects and have a compulsive personality will probably end up using it constantly if the have access to it. In this respect it is similar to weed, and alcohol, although that has a physiological component too. Plus it turns you into a drooling moron and ruins parties. We call it "twatnip."
- adobriyan 13y agoAny reasonable public forum will flat out ban any drug discussions because of experts like 70forty who tell kids it is safe.
- ramblerman 13y agoKetamine is certainly not new (on the street or other). And as it is an anaesthetic, I highly doubt it would be used to prevent passing out. So yeah... you got the wikipedia link right
- malka 13y agoare you saying that there are more user of `hard` drug than user of weed in dutch ? this seems really weird.
- mtrimpe 13y agoUntil not that long ago we had similar 'non-enforcement in practice' for small amounts of XTC pills and under a gram of cocaine. In general Dutch policy is/was about allowing and educating towards responsible use which means that, especially in big cities and certain big parties, there is a subculture where hard-drug use is condoned and to some degree par for the course. Culturally minimal responsible use (a tablet once or twice a year, a line of cocaine to extend a party once) is considered as 'your choice and I'll try not to look down on you for it,' but any form of dependence is heavily frowned upon and discouraged. In general it's part of a broader theme of giving you the freedom to make your own mistakes as long as they don't negatively impact others, which comes with a lot of implicit cultural experience in how to let people experiment and come to their own terms with these drugs without losing them to the drug. In practice it tends to take the form of most people 'going through a phase' and growing out of it, a small amount of people becoming high-functioning long-term addicts and an even smaller percentage of in-the-gutter destroy-your-life type addicts.
- nmc 13y agoWould not surprise me at all. Despite the well-known image of the street filled with coffee-shops, really a few Dutch people smoke: less than 5% of them use the coffee-shops, and less than 10% of 15-24-year-olds.
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- ohwp 13y agoDutchmen here. No you cannot have or grow plants. This is still illegal. They might shelve the case when you are having 5 plants or less. But above 5 they always make a case of it. And yes Ketamine (Special K / Vitamin K / Kokaine) is used as party drug, but alcohol, weed and nicotine are used most followed by XTC and cocaine.
- dep_b 13y agoAnother Dutchman here. Indeed it's true that it's illegal to grow pot. Growing pot is completely illegal apart from some medicinal use, where they try to grow a variety that will not get you super high but still has medicinal value. Let me make it clear: THERE IS NO WAY A COFFEESHOP CAN GET THEIR WEED IN A LEGAL WAY Since the turn of the century we have seen a string of conservative governments, elected because other problems in our society, that like to clamp down on drugs and other liberal things because it makes them look tough without having to deal with the true problems in this country. Indeed it is very strange that a country that has a vast majority of people in favor of legalization, as we have been the witnesses of the fact that regulated drugs have a positive effect on society. Just to sum up how clueless our governments were in the last 12 year or so, an image of a former president that just says it all: http://tegekvoorwoorden.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/balkenende_188907x.jpg http://tegekvoorwoorden.files.wordpress.com/2010/06/balkenen... FUCK DRUGS. LET'S HAVE A BEER!
- skrebbel 13y agoIndependent of the actual subject matter, I think that recent drug policy changes in the Netherlands is a great example of how the common push for centralization can be countered by local demands. At some point, drug enforcement was pretty much the same across the country, but now, because different cities have different problems and influences, it is enforced differently in cities. As a strong believer in the "subsidiarity principle" (things should be decided as locally as they can), I've been appalled at the push towards centralization of policies and control in many European countries the last decade. It seems that everybody thinks that if local issues are made national policy, and national issues European policy, things will automatically be better. Usually it starts because in one locality, something goes wrong, resulting in media outrage and a call for more regulation by a higher government. If we don't watch out, small town sidewalk planning will be done in Brussels. The recent Dutch drug policy changes show that with enough effort, the subsidiarity principle can still win. This gives me some confidence for the future. We need to keep underlining that not every place is the same.
- netcan 13y agoI am very pro EU. The original purpose was to avoid wars, long teem. That goal is still relevant. Free trade and free movement were both considered tools. I consider them (especially the often neglected free movement) ends themselves. That said, the EU has issues. Lots of political traditions and very few basic principles to guide how things should be done. What EU is and isn't responsible for isn't clear. There has been lots of recent pieces of legislation and precedents created in a panicky environment as a response to the banking crisis. Personally I believe that is possible and preferable to maintain free movement and trade without that being translated into centrally insured and regulated banking, just like it should apply to local drug policy. I also think that's the only way it will work.
- bowlofpetunias 13y agoI have become very anti-EU in recent years. I am very much pro open borders with neighboring nations, but the EU has become a vehicle for creating a fundamentally undemocratic centralized federal state. And I especially detest the way the EU tries to shift the balance of power by allowing impoverished, corrupt nations into the EU without any kind of democratic process. In the Netherlands, there is a clear majority against the expansion of the EU, and we are being railroaded. We voted against the EU "constitution" in the only meaningful referendum in the history of our nation, and they simply changed the fucking name. The fact that an originally very strongly pro-European nation like the Netherlands said "no further" should have been a clear signal to reform the EU, but instead things have just become worse. I'm still pro-European, but consider the EU the enemy of our freedom, democracy and sovereignty.
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- Cthulhu_ 13y agoThere's a lot of laws like this that don't get enforced as much as 'law' would imply. Another example is the ban on smoking in workplaces to protect the employees; in the Netherlands, a couple of years ago, this law was implemented, meaning that smoking was effectively banned from bars and pubs as well. Outrage ensued from all sides. Two 'workarounds' were created: * People just donate to the pub owner to pay the fines if the inspector came around * Certain bars had no personnel, just the owner; ergo, no personnel, so no requirement to create a smoke-free environment for personnel, so, smoke away. Others are things like speeding (everyone does it, gets a fine on rare occasions, only the extreme ones get their license impounded), downloading music/software, etc.
- nmc 13y agoGood examples, except for downloading: Dutch law recognizes intellectual property, broadcasting/selling copyrighted material is forbidden, but obtaining it is not illegal.
- Ergomane 13y agoThat depends on what is downloaded. Downloading copyrighted software is illegal in NL, downloading movies, music and books is not.
- _delirium 13y agoInteresting, is smoking still common in bars in the Netherlands? That's one of the laws that actually is pretty widely followed in other countries. One of the more surprising was that in a period of about 3 years, Greek bars and nightclubs went from being 100% smoke-filled to being essentially smoke-free.
- ansgri 13y agoGreek bars, really? I've been to Thessaloniki in November, and there were few bars/restaurants with a smoke-free zones, and I cannot imagine a completely non-smoking bar there.
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- StudyAnimal 13y agoWhat is the current situation in towns like Maastricht and Heerlen that decided to implement the residents only restriction? Was that rolled back or not?
- Heliosmaster 13y agoNope. Here in Eindhoven you have to be a member to geet weed, or so I am told.
- dep_b 13y agoThat's true. They have limited amounts of memberships as well so a buddy that still smokes regularly visited them all in the first day he could register just to be sure. I am now firmly convinced that the dopeheads of France will shave off their dreadlocks and start looking for a job now the cesspool of evil influence that was the Dutch liberal stance on drugs has been eradicated.
- walshemj 13y agoBut its basically illegal under EU law - you cant restrict trade on the basis of which EU country you come from.
- pacifika 13y agoAs you can read from the article it's still ILLEGAL but allowed; not 'still legal' as in the link description. It makes clarifying a confusing matter more confusing.
- mcv 13y agoIt's sad that as most of the world is moving towards legalization, we're suddenly moving backwards.
- josefresco 13y agoFrom the thread: "recognize the difference between tolerated and allowed" What a horrible way of governing, almost worse than the US's state vs. federal legality (at least it's officially "legal" on the state level and not just tolerated). Telling people that something is illegal but "tolerated" is a license for potential abuse by authorities. It essentially makes all prosecution a judgement call for individual authority figures. Sounds like a recipe for potential abuse to me.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y agoI agree with you completely. If my very shallow understanding of the issue is correct, I think it may be because US foreign policy strongly pushes drug prohibition with its trade partners. By keeping cannabis "illegal" nations get to sort of feign compliance with US demands while having as little domestic effect as possible.
- josefresco 13y agoInteresting, I didn't even think of that angle. Is there any reference to support this hypothesis? I would love to read more about how US foreign policy or aid potentially effects the laws of other countries. I could see the US getting involved with big drug export countries (e.g. Columbia) but I wonder how involved they are with others that don't play a large part in the global drug trade.
- fnordfnordfnord 13y ago>Is there any reference to support this hypothesis? There are anecdotes and news stories floating around. How close are they to the truth? I don't know.
- Mvandenbergh 13y agoNot really because the limits of what is and what is not tolerated are not arbitrarily decided by individuals. There are clearly understood and published local guidelines, effectively this is often an end-run around national level laws that the local community collectively chooses not to enforce. A prosecution brought against someone who was within the understood, tolerated guidelines wouldn't be successful because it would contravene the principle of the rule of law (quite central to Dutch political and judicial thinking). The crucial elements of the rule of law, predictability and detachment from individual judgement outside of established and controlled channels is maintained in the Dutch system because there exist universally understood and judicially binding methods of disseminating the local guidelines. I'll admit that it usually isn't explained very well because it's mostly lay Dutch people explaining their understanding. Notably, I've never heard of a case anywhere in the Netherlands where this principle has been abused.
- chimeracoder 13y agoGood explanation, but this title is incredibly misleading. Marijuana was never legal in the Netherlands[0], for tourists or residents. As the linked answer itself points out, it was only tolerated. Until November 2012, there was no place in the world where marijuana was truly legal, except (possibly) North Korea[1]. Even still, it's a stretch to say that marijuana is legal in Washington State and Colorado, since the Feds could easily decide tomorrow that they want to crack down on it, and you could be arrested[2]. The distinction between legality and tolerance is important. Decriminalization and/or tolerance provide only a small subset of the benefits of true legalization. Without true legalization, you cannot have (ex.) quality control via local regulators, nor can you choke off drug cartels by undercutting one of their most profitable products. (Instead, you may even end up putting money into their pockets, depending on where you source the marijuana from - thankfully, this is less of an issue in Colorado and Washington). Anyway, marijuana is now clearly less illegal in Colorado than in the Netherlands (in Denver, it is allowed under both city[3] and state law, though not federal law). Personally, I'm glad that the US now has its own place to go for marijuana tourism (similar to Tijuana for alcohol) - one could say that this is US protectionism at its finest! [0] Well, at least not since the US started exporting its drug policy worldwide several decades ago. [1] Alaska has a similar policy in private residences since 1977 due to a state court ruling on the right to privacy, but it is still illegal. North Korea has been cited as the one exception to this rule (ironically), but reports of its legality there are mixed. [2] Look at what happened in Harborside and Oaksterdam (when cracking down on medical dispensaries, the Obama administration has used an underhanded tax catch-22 as political cover for busting shops that he previously said he'd allow, but the effect is the same). [3] Denver legalized marijuana by city vote in 2006, and Breckenridge, CO legalized marijuana by town vote in 2009