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Second person used to be: Singular----|----Plural Thou Ye, You Thee You Thine Yours Thy Your Which correspond to the nomin

Second person used to be: Singular----|----Plural Thou Ye, You Thee You Thine Yours Thy Your Which correspond to the nominative, objective, and possessive cases accordingly. By the way, the "Ye" is not related to the "Ye" in store signs that say "Ye Olde...". Y was sometimes used by typographers instead of the Old English letter Þ(Thorn), which makes a "Th" sound, so those store signs should be pronounced as "The Old..." The usage of "You" instead of "Thou" began in the 14th century. It was originally used in token of respect when addressing a superior, and eventually began to be used when addressing equals. EDIT: Removed part about "you all", because some things I said were wrong and others I will have to look up.

ghayes 13y ago
According to Merriam-Webster, "you all" is very clearly related to "y'all" [1][2] [1] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/y'all http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/y'all [2] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/you_all http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/you_all
groovy2shoes 13y ago
"Y'all" is a contraction of "you all" [1], but let's not forget about "you guys" or "yous guys". [1] http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=y%27all http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=y%27all
tikwidd 13y ago
A couple of other English pronoun tidbits: - The third person plural set (they, their, them) was borrowed from Scandinavian (it's pretty uncommon for languages to borrow 'core' vocabulary such as pronouns). - Old English (Anglo-Saxon) also had dual forms of the pronoun. Those were lost by Chaucer's time though. Not sure if they are reflexes of early PIE dual forms or a more recent development from Proto-Germanic. [Sara Malton] [1] has some interesting ideas about how the you/thee distinction developed in the semantic dimensions of power as well as familiarity in Early Modern English. There are many new 2p. plural forms developing in English that vary regionally and socially, e.g y'all, you guys, yous, you'uns (-> yinz), all y'all. [1]: http://homes.chass.utoronto.ca/~cpercy/courses/6361Malton.htm http://homes.chass.utoronto.ca/~cpercy/courses/6361Malton.ht...
- mattlutze 13y ago
  What value does abbreviation "PIE" add to a discussion for relative laymen? I'm guessing it stands for "Proto-Indo-European", a phrase I'll bet nearly no one outside advanced degree word nerds (invoked lovingly) uses or has heard. Sorry for the soapbox.
  - sabbatic13 13y ago
    If you ever have studied comparative-historical linguistics, you know the abbreviation is frequent and necessary. So, the question is, what are the chances that someone familiar with it might use it and not even think about it? Your response assumed it was fully conscious. In any event, we're in the land of acronym pandemonium here, between CS, Data Science, Web terms, etc. PIE is a drop in a big bucket.
    - lostlogin 13y ago
      Medical, wow. The same abbreviation is used within different sub specialities frequently. The fact that any patients leave any facility alive when their doctor sends them for a test, with a referral that spouts acronyms, abbreviations and generally aliterate scrawl is amazing. Eg. Phx COPD, Ca 10/12 Tx RT. C+ CT ?PE. And assuming you can read it, this is a good one. Some specialists even invent their own abbreviations, diligently reusing existing ones. And then they are surprised when asking for an MRA gets an MR angiogram rather than an MR arthrogram. Medical abbreviations must die.
    - mattlutze 13y ago
      The point is that it's highly likely the subset of Hacker News that has studied comparitive-historical linguistics is small, and that the usage of field-specific jargon is exclusionary and obfuscatory. I studied rhetoric and technical communication for some time, and know quite well the usefulness of field-specific terminology for initiated readers. This, however, is not a comparitive-historical linguistics symposium and, as a multidisciplinary forum, I find no reason we should not to expect commentators to write to their actual audience. Down-vote all you like, it doesn't change the fact that jargonistic writing for general audiences is rarely necessary and most often laziness.
davedx 13y ago
Interesting. So the way we learned the Lord's Prayer, it seems to use the informal: "Thy will be done". But that doesn't correlate with addressing God as "LORD", does it? Edit: I looked this up and found this page: http://brandplucked.webs.com/theeandye.htm http://brandplucked.webs.com/theeandye.htm It seems to infer that "thou, thee" etc. are only about distinguishing between singular and plural. There's no mention of them being an informal form, at least not in the King James Bible. Even more: "As William Tyndale translated the Bible into English in the early 16th century, he sought to preserve the singular and plural distinctions that he found in his Hebrew and Greek originals. Therefore, he consistently used thou for the singular and ye for the plural regardless of the relative status of the speaker and the addressee. By doing so, he probably saved thou from utter obscurity and gave it an air of solemnity that sharply distinguished it from its original meaning. Tyndale's usage was imitated in the King James Bible, and remained familiar because of that translation." Then more from Wikipedia - the plot thickens! "Early English translations of the Bible used thou and never you as the singular second-person pronoun, with the double effect of maintaining thou in usage and also imbuing it with an air of religious solemnity that is antithetical to its former sense of familiarity or disrespect." Also, apparently French uses the informal (see "toi" in the Lord's Prayer), whereas Dutch uses formal (U/uw).
- sentenza 13y ago
  Curiously, unlike Dutch, German uses informal. "Dein Wille geschehe..."
  - radio4fan 13y ago
    French also uses informal. "... c'est à toi qu'appartiennent le règne"
    - deleted 13y ago
      [deleted]
- david927 13y ago
  In German, the informal is used and I was told it's because it is "God the father."
jejones3141 13y ago
One addition: "thine" was used instead of "thy" before words that start with a vowel sound, and similarly "mine" instead of "my" before words that start with a vowel sound.
tunesmith 13y ago
Cool. Singular: Thou would like Bob to give thee thy ball. It is thine, and then thou will feel good about thyself. Plural: Ye would like Bob to give you your ball. it is yours, and then ye will feel good about yourselves. Not really sure how to ask "Are you okay?" of a singular person, though...
- Todd 13y ago
  Art thou okay?
  - blafunke 13y ago
    Art thou of good contenance this day?
- cron 13y ago
  In Ireland it's fairly common for people to use "you" as the singular and "ye" as the plural. It's less ambiguous but definitely not considered proper.
- evincarofautumn 13y ago
  You need to change the conjugations as well. Thou wouldst like Bob to give thee thy ball. It is thine, and then thou wilt feel good about thyself. Art thou okay? Generally thou forms ended in -st or -t: do/dost, are/art, shall/shalt, go/goest. Third-person forms ended in -eth: do/doth, go/goeth.
pacaro 13y ago
Some English dialects retain these distinctions leading to (somewhat forced) sayings like "Don't thee tha me, tha them that tha's thee" - a Yorkshire admonishment against over familiarity.
- quarterto 13y ago
  In my hometown it's quite common to hear "'ow's tha bin?" ("How've you been?") and "sithee later" ("see you later").
Ironballs 13y ago
thine is also the prevocalic possessive, "thy anvil" must be written as "thine anvil", similar to a/an.
userulluipeste 13y ago
"Thee" is actually "to you" or "for you". (I thought I knew less English than I actually do!)
- SiVal 13y ago
  Almost. It's a difference between subject and object, like I versus me or he versus him. Thou is the subjective form. "Thou art wise." Thee is the objective form. "My lord did kiss thee in the garden." Thee can be any object, such as the object of a transitive verb in the above example.
  - userulluipeste 13y ago
    Agreed. I just tried to give a simple (but rough) explanation, but when one tries to do that there always is something "lost in translation".
jjtheblunt 13y ago
It was eth (voiced th), not thorn (unvoiced th). But I was _very_happy_ to see someone else knew this. The glyph for Eth looks like delta (as in calculus) with an extra cross atop it, so, distorted, looks very much like a script y. You can see at least thorn still in use in Icelandic, by the way.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
fsck--off 13y ago
I'm posting this for posterity because this thread has long since fallen off the front page. I was wrong about the pronunciation of "Ye Olde". When it is used as a spurious indication of antiquity, the Oxford English Dictionary says it should be pronounced (jiː əʊld) or (jiː ˈəʊldiː).
- fractallyte 13y ago
  Since posterity is for a long time, you should know that you were correct in the first instance. The OED merely reflects the fluidity of the English language, even when that language picks up idiocies such as 'Ye' being pronounced 'ji'. Thorn is a fascinating letter, and I'm glad you drew attention to it in your original post. Sometimes I wish English would begin to re-incorporate some of those old words, or (as in this case) a letter.

ghayes 13y ago

According to Merriam-Webster, "you all" is very clearly related to "y'all" [1][2] [1] http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/y'all http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/y'all [2] http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/you_all http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/you_all

groovy2shoes 13y ago

"Y'all" is a contraction of "you all" [1], but let's not forget about "you guys" or "yous guys". [1] http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=y%27all http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=y%27all

tikwidd 13y ago

A couple of other English pronoun tidbits: - The third person plural set (they, their, them) was borrowed from Scandinavian (it's pretty uncommon for languages to borrow 'core' vocabulary such as pronouns). - Old English (Anglo-Saxon) also had dual forms of the pronoun. Those were lost by Chaucer's time though. Not sure if they are reflexes of early PIE dual forms or a more recent development from Proto-Germanic. [Sara Malton] [1] has some interesting ideas about how the you/thee distinction developed in the semantic dimensions of power as well as familiarity in Early Modern English. There are many new 2p. plural forms developing in English that vary regionally and socially, e.g y'all, you guys, yous, you'uns (-> yinz), all y'all. [1]: http://homes.chass.utoronto.ca/~cpercy/courses/6361Malton.htm http://homes.chass.utoronto.ca/~cpercy/courses/6361Malton.ht...

mattlutze 13y ago
What value does abbreviation "PIE" add to a discussion for relative laymen? I'm guessing it stands for "Proto-Indo-European", a phrase I'll bet nearly no one outside advanced degree word nerds (invoked lovingly) uses or has heard. Sorry for the soapbox.
- sabbatic13 13y ago
  If you ever have studied comparative-historical linguistics, you know the abbreviation is frequent and necessary. So, the question is, what are the chances that someone familiar with it might use it and not even think about it? Your response assumed it was fully conscious. In any event, we're in the land of acronym pandemonium here, between CS, Data Science, Web terms, etc. PIE is a drop in a big bucket.
  - lostlogin 13y ago
    Medical, wow. The same abbreviation is used within different sub specialities frequently. The fact that any patients leave any facility alive when their doctor sends them for a test, with a referral that spouts acronyms, abbreviations and generally aliterate scrawl is amazing. Eg. Phx COPD, Ca 10/12 Tx RT. C+ CT ?PE. And assuming you can read it, this is a good one. Some specialists even invent their own abbreviations, diligently reusing existing ones. And then they are surprised when asking for an MRA gets an MR angiogram rather than an MR arthrogram. Medical abbreviations must die.
  - mattlutze 13y ago
    The point is that it's highly likely the subset of Hacker News that has studied comparitive-historical linguistics is small, and that the usage of field-specific jargon is exclusionary and obfuscatory. I studied rhetoric and technical communication for some time, and know quite well the usefulness of field-specific terminology for initiated readers. This, however, is not a comparitive-historical linguistics symposium and, as a multidisciplinary forum, I find no reason we should not to expect commentators to write to their actual audience. Down-vote all you like, it doesn't change the fact that jargonistic writing for general audiences is rarely necessary and most often laziness.

davedx 13y ago

Interesting. So the way we learned the Lord's Prayer, it seems to use the informal: "Thy will be done". But that doesn't correlate with addressing God as "LORD", does it? Edit: I looked this up and found this page: http://brandplucked.webs.com/theeandye.htm http://brandplucked.webs.com/theeandye.htm It seems to infer that "thou, thee" etc. are only about distinguishing between singular and plural. There's no mention of them being an informal form, at least not in the King James Bible. Even more: "As William Tyndale translated the Bible into English in the early 16th century, he sought to preserve the singular and plural distinctions that he found in his Hebrew and Greek originals. Therefore, he consistently used thou for the singular and ye for the plural regardless of the relative status of the speaker and the addressee. By doing so, he probably saved thou from utter obscurity and gave it an air of solemnity that sharply distinguished it from its original meaning. Tyndale's usage was imitated in the King James Bible, and remained familiar because of that translation." Then more from Wikipedia - the plot thickens! "Early English translations of the Bible used thou and never you as the singular second-person pronoun, with the double effect of maintaining thou in usage and also imbuing it with an air of religious solemnity that is antithetical to its former sense of familiarity or disrespect." Also, apparently French uses the informal (see "toi" in the Lord's Prayer), whereas Dutch uses formal (U/uw).

sentenza 13y ago
Curiously, unlike Dutch, German uses informal. "Dein Wille geschehe..."
- radio4fan 13y ago
  French also uses informal. "... c'est à toi qu'appartiennent le règne"
  - deleted 13y ago
    [deleted]
david927 13y ago
In German, the informal is used and I was told it's because it is "God the father."

jejones3141 13y ago

One addition: "thine" was used instead of "thy" before words that start with a vowel sound, and similarly "mine" instead of "my" before words that start with a vowel sound.

tunesmith 13y ago

Cool. Singular: Thou would like Bob to give thee thy ball. It is thine, and then thou will feel good about thyself. Plural: Ye would like Bob to give you your ball. it is yours, and then ye will feel good about yourselves. Not really sure how to ask "Are you okay?" of a singular person, though...

Todd 13y ago
Art thou okay?
- blafunke 13y ago
  Art thou of good contenance this day?
cron 13y ago
In Ireland it's fairly common for people to use "you" as the singular and "ye" as the plural. It's less ambiguous but definitely not considered proper.
evincarofautumn 13y ago
You need to change the conjugations as well. Thou wouldst like Bob to give thee thy ball. It is thine, and then thou wilt feel good about thyself. Art thou okay? Generally thou forms ended in -st or -t: do/dost, are/art, shall/shalt, go/goest. Third-person forms ended in -eth: do/doth, go/goeth.

pacaro 13y ago

Some English dialects retain these distinctions leading to (somewhat forced) sayings like "Don't thee tha me, tha them that tha's thee" - a Yorkshire admonishment against over familiarity.

quarterto 13y ago
In my hometown it's quite common to hear "'ow's tha bin?" ("How've you been?") and "sithee later" ("see you later").

Ironballs 13y ago

thine is also the prevocalic possessive, "thy anvil" must be written as "thine anvil", similar to a/an.

userulluipeste 13y ago

"Thee" is actually "to you" or "for you". (I thought I knew less English than I actually do!)

SiVal 13y ago
Almost. It's a difference between subject and object, like I versus me or he versus him. Thou is the subjective form. "Thou art wise." Thee is the objective form. "My lord did kiss thee in the garden." Thee can be any object, such as the object of a transitive verb in the above example.
- userulluipeste 13y ago
  Agreed. I just tried to give a simple (but rough) explanation, but when one tries to do that there always is something "lost in translation".

jjtheblunt 13y ago

It was eth (voiced th), not thorn (unvoiced th). But I was _very_happy_ to see someone else knew this. The glyph for Eth looks like delta (as in calculus) with an extra cross atop it, so, distorted, looks very much like a script y. You can see at least thorn still in use in Icelandic, by the way.

deleted 13y ago
[deleted]

fsck--off 13y ago

I'm posting this for posterity because this thread has long since fallen off the front page. I was wrong about the pronunciation of "Ye Olde". When it is used as a spurious indication of antiquity, the Oxford English Dictionary says it should be pronounced (jiː əʊld) or (jiː ˈəʊldiː).

fractallyte 13y ago
Since posterity is for a long time, you should know that you were correct in the first instance. The OED merely reflects the fluidity of the English language, even when that language picks up idiocies such as 'Ye' being pronounced 'ji'. Thorn is a fascinating letter, and I'm glad you drew attention to it in your original post. Sometimes I wish English would begin to re-incorporate some of those old words, or (as in this case) a letter.