19 ms·

Anonymity

95 points by gatsby 13y ago

rett12 13y ago
" Anonymous social networks have been (thus far, anyway) in the category of services that get worse as they get bigger--unlike services like Facebook or Twitter that get better as they get bigger"
- mikeg8 13y ago
  your point here?
sneak 13y ago
> In fact, the closer to real identity internet forums get, the less they seem to decay. Wow, I had no idea 4chan is so irrelevant. Someone should tell them.
- apetresc 13y ago
  It's quite clear from his context that he meant "decay" as in "become mean and nasty", not "become unpopular." In that sense, yes, 4chan is absolutely a perfect example.
  - moot 13y ago
    Also wrong.
    - apetresc 13y ago
      Which part? I know you're the creator of 4chan, and are necessarily going to see it "at its best", but surely even you must agree that many parts of it (especially /b/) behave badly?
      - alexeisadeski3 13y ago
        Less anonymity = discussion tends towards staid, boring, repetitive, meaningless, dishonest, inoffensive More anonymity = discussion tends towards thought provoking, creative, honest, offensive
      - Zikes 13y ago
        That's a false correlation. There are many other boards on 4chan that are equally anonymous but have thriving and generally amicable communities.
- nodata 13y ago
  and reddit.
- nswanberg 13y ago
  Sarcasm is an effective technique against one's parents when one's methods of expression are limited and one would like to, for example, express that one does not genuinely want to take out the trash, especially given the fact that one's sibling has not taken out the trash for a week AND LIFE IS SO UNFAIR!!1!, but I am sure you are older than that and can do better. How is 4chan culturally relevant? If it is, is it more or less relevant than reddit? How about twitter? What cultural artifacts has it produced that could not have been created elsewhere? Are these cultural artifacts timeless or ephemeral? Can it produce something beyond culture? Could a work of literature or science emerge from 4chan? What would we lose if it didn't exist? How does anonymity help? Does it help teenagers forge an identity? Adults? Or does it help foster a group bond between like minded folks? Does the anonymity and lack of an account history allow one to experiment with ideas without being beholden to a past identity? Is it similar to a videogame in that respect, where one can do and say what one wants without consequences? Can such a world coexist with a service like Facebook or Google Plus? Does this allow people who are or believe they are marginalized by society to thrive or is this a place where privileged bullies wear masks and sharpen their taunts? If it were possible, would Facebook or Google Plus benefit from a /b/ mode? What would it look like? How does all this relate to Secret? Would Secret be used as a therapy session? A way to attack enemies? A way to spread knowledge? Or pure entertainment? I don't have much of an opinion on 4chan or Secret, but find anonymity and privacy fascinating. I think the point you and moot are raising is a great addition to what Sam wrote, and look forward to reading what moot is going to write. In the meant time, I would love that the discussion went beyond sarcasm and two word rebuttals.
  - smoyer 13y ago
    Sarcasm can also be an art form.
vezzy-fnord 13y ago
In fact, the closer to real identity internet forums get, the less they seem to decay. Define decay. People voicing strong opinions or even being assholes to a certain degree doesn't count. It's a normal part of every community. Usenet was full of legendary flame wars, yet the level of discourse was still very high, and most people used real names to identify themselves. Otherwise, all you get is a hugbox echo chamber where people with personality disorders and brittle egos thrive in a mutual self-affirmation, eradicating all discourse.
moot 13y ago
This is completely and utterly wrong, and only furthers my belief that nobody in Silicon Valley actually "gets" anonymity. I'll try to write a real response tonight on my blog (http://chrishateswriting.com http://chrishateswriting.com)
- harryh 13y ago
  Really looking forward to your point of view on this moot.
- eurleif 13y ago
  I would love it if you discussed Omegle/ChatRoulette in your post. (Disclaimer: I made Omegle, and obviously I have an interest in you pimping my site. But I also think it would be interesting to see you analyze how anonymity applies to it, since you probably have more perspective on it than I do.)
  - smoyer 13y ago
    I have great for doing sociology experiments on Omegle ... You'd be amazed at what I've learned about people's motivations and expectations just by gaming them slightly. Oh ... There have been a couple of awkward instances when I've tried to go there in person too!
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- teaneedz 13y ago
  > This is completely and utterly wrong, and only furthers my belief that nobody in Silicon Valley actually "gets" anonymity. I tend to agree with this statement. Anonymity and Pseudonymity (two diff things) type conversations will decay if the community allows it and the audience on the medium encourages the behavior. I've seen plenty of negative "real name" conversations. I've also seen plenty of great *nym conversations too. SV misses the point on this in my opinion as well. [edited] I just want to add the original content and tone also sets the stage for what happens in the comment sections. In the case of Secret, I'm a little bleh on the app but think the UI is sweet. I haven't seen the negative side of it yet nor have I posted negative comments either.
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
- Ruska 13y ago
  Exactly. I censor myself all the time in any online setting that isn't anonymous. I'll have my contribution to the conversation typed out, edited, and then I think on whether someone somewhere could possible take it the wrong way, or if it could come back to bite me. It's usually not worth posting (to me) if it's a controversial topic - there's very little to be gained, but a lot to lose.
  - BlackDeath3 13y ago
    I really wish this was not the case. Though it may seem to many like there is very little to be gained by honesty, I'd love to see a world where people weren't afraid to say what they thought, to speak their mind. I get tired of living in such a sterile world. The thing that keeps me from disclosing identity in many venues isn't so much "what will people who know me think of what I said" as it is "don't give blackhats any more reason to grief me over things I've said". Hopefully that is something I myself can get over eventually.
jsnk 13y ago
I can see Secret becoming popular. I've obsessed with the topic of anonymity online. I created dmtri.com in order to foster anonymity online. I believe that people long to be honest with themselves, but the avenues of doing so is extremely limited and difficult. I hope that Secret will be one of few outlets for people like that. The problem I have with Secret is that, in order to be marketable to marketers and VCs, Secret weakened the purpose of anonymity online. Straight honesty. Without the ability to be honest with yourself and others, anonymity online is only half good. The community rules they have are destructive to people who want to be honest with themselves.
jhonovich 13y ago
Translation: Silicon Valley big shots don't like people criticizing them at will, ergo this will fail.
Kapura 13y ago
If 4chan.org has taught the world anything, the first thing that people will do with total anonymity is decay into the behaviours that they WANT to express, but society deems unacceptable. That forbidden fruit of being able to shit-talk without consequence will never stop tasting sweet, but I think that it speaks more to the character of the shit-talker than medium. Thus, I think that the "solution" to these sorts of nasty gossip apps is what Mr. Altman has done: simply refusing to be party to the gossip. You may miss out on juicy deets of who's done what with whom, but some things are more important than two minutes of entertainment. It's really up to potential users to decide if they want to get sucked into this sort of negative attention funnel. edit: I see moot is going to be writing a response to this; I look forward to what he has to say. He is, in my opinion, the foremost expert on internet anonymity (or at least he's on 4chan a lot) so I think that his perspective should be considered highly.
- lmm 13y ago
  It always seemed to me like moot himself never really quite understood what he'd created (see snacks' infamous "you don't get it" from way back - though I'm having trouble tracking it down. Maybe he took it off the internet?). (Still, I'm interested to see what he'll say)
- leobelle 13y ago
  The behaviors that some people may want, and those that don't run for the doors. This may give you the idea that everyone is behaving that way, since it's entirely anonymous, but be assured I don't visit 4chan. 4chan is a cesspool.
- Zigurd 13y ago
  4chan is like any subculture that gets popular enough to be noticed. Most people condemning it have not experienced it enough to come to an informed opinion.
  - Kapura 13y ago
    I hate to derail this topic to talk about 4chan, but I think that 4chan is many-faceted (and, indeed, the level of anonymity has varied across time and from board to board on the website) so I'm not certain an informed opinion could ever be COMPLETELY informed. Certainly, somebody lurking on /b/ for a few months might have something to say, but they're missing out on the sub-boards, which have their own board cultures and memes in microcosm. Again, moot goes to 4chan a lot, so I'm waiting to see what he has to say.
xacaxulu 13y ago
This probably says a lot more about the author's need for anonymity than anything else. Yeah, persecuted Iranian journalists only need anonymity to "be mean". Derp. Yeah, Chinese dissidents only need it when they want to say something naughty. Living in a bubble is all comfy but let's not imagine that everyone in the world operates from the same luxurious position when deciding who needs anonymity and why...especially when your premise is based on scanning 4chan or Reddit.
- sama 13y ago
  these are examples of real need for anonymity, but something like secret would be a bad platform for it.
sama 13y ago
I should clarify what I meant by "decay"--services can continue to grow, but if the quality (defined loosely) goes below a certain point, I think it's hard to make them into really valuable businesses.
- mcantelon 13y ago
  Reddit is anonymous, one of the fastest growing sites on the Internet, and Bill Gates is doing a QA on it as we speak. Seems like a site's culture/ranking algorithms determine quality rather than whether or not a site's anonymous.
  - aidenn0 13y ago
    Reddit is pseudonymous; the difference is important, as if it were truly anonymous Gates would not be able to do an AMA
    - argumentum 13y ago
      It's more correct to say that Reddit (like HN) is a hybrid of anonymity and identity. It can be truly anonymous (you can quickly create a throwaway account) or you can "prove" to the admins that you are who you say you are (like Bill Gates).
      - aidenn0 13y ago
        That sounds like a definition of "pseudonymous" to me. Particularly since moot has claimed for a while that part of what makes 4chan works is that you can't maintain an identity.
  - blah32497 13y ago
    arguably reddit has also "decayed" quite a bit The quality of the conversation has gotten worse and worse, things are targeted towards the lowest common denominator. You need to go to specific subreddits or really dig around in the shit to find the gems. The flip side is that it generates a ton of content. To the signal to noise is horrible, but in aggregate there is more interesting stuff going on then on slashdot or wherever
higherpurpose 13y ago
I haven't used it, but from what I understand it's an app where people tell secrets about something or someone. So that may be the first reason you may not like it, especially if it's about you. It doesn't have much to do with anonymity, but with the fact that it's supposed to be a community around divulging people's secrets. So even though it's "anonymous", it's actually anti-privacy. Second, I'm anonymous on HN and I'm anonymous on Reddit. This should prove that what you need is not to ban anonymity, but to have good enough voting and filtering mechanisms, and a decent culture inside the community. I'm also not entirely sure Twitter is getting better. If it is, it's only because you chose to follow certain people. But I imagine with Twitter growing its audience, a lot more of the "normal people", who may not be as educated, join Twitter and say a lot of nasty stuff online, much like they would offline. As for Facebook, again, it may have gotten "better" for you because of its filtering mechanism, and because in time it learned to show you only certain types of posts. So from your point of view, I think the main problems are with the type of community this is in the first place, and the "etiquette" for that community, and with Secret.ly being a new app and the founders not having enough time to polish things up.
efnysien 13y ago
Anonymity, and the effectiveness of anonymity has a lot to do with how the site, or product is structured. With secret, you have the app directly plugged into your friends-list, and while the content is 'anonymous', it's a watered down version of true anonymity. All apps like this serve to do is breed insecurity and malcontent amongst our peers. Now imagine another version of Secret, where you truly anonymize message sends. Instead of seeing content from your friends lists, you see content from the world-over. Instead of some sort of petty, mean-girls-esque hate journal, it could be a modern, 21'st century version of the confessional (not that I'm a fan of the confessional, but you gotta admit there's something rather tantalizing in the concept). SV seems to be stuck in a mire where product has to revolve around one's social group. What happened to the days of good old voyeurism?
ultimoo 13y ago
"Give a man a mask and he'll show his true face."
- teddyh 13y ago
  “You must discover whose face lies behind this mask, but you must never know my face. Is that quite clear?” — V
gruseom 13y ago
This reminded me of an excellent post the other day about an anonymous messaging network ("Rumor Monger") that ran inside Apple until management shut it down: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7204558 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7204558 It got very little discussion, so if you didn't see it, I recommend it.
soneca 13y ago
I think the author had a negative emotional reaction to Secret and jumped too quickly to what he thought was a rational analysis of the theme. He grabbed a few top of mind examples that supported his theory and tried to guess what was wrong with Secret, then extrapolated to anonymity in general. Had he slept on the text or sent to a few friends to review it, I could bet it would become different on the conclusions.
drum 13y ago
Anonymity isn't as black and white as everyone keeps portraying it. Take HN for example - we all have usernames, some of which are our real names. Sites like 4Chan and LikeALittle - all harbor true anonymity. I agree with Sam that those sites decay over time. However, sites like Reddit and HN that are built around pseudo-anonymity and voting have been able to produce thoughtful discussion
rgbrgb 13y ago
I've been taking a deeper look at reddit in the last couple of weeks and I'd say real-name social networks decay in a different direction. My Facebook wall is an extremely shallow stream self-promotion, one-liners, and food pics -- very little actual discussion. As the OP notes, it is very rare that anyone says anything remotely controversial (or interesting). Reddit, on the other hand feels very much alive. People talk about their feelings, confide in each other, ask interesting questions. Not sure if it's just the anonymity, it also has to do with the fact that the community is much bigger so you can ask anything and someone will have an answer. However, the anonymity certainly allows for that large group to come together for (often) coherent conversations.
- anologwintermut 13y ago
  Do you think the difference in reddit anonymity, or that your Facebook feed is composed of people from your geographically limited social circle?
  - AnthonyMouse 13y ago
    > Do you think the difference in reddit anonymity, or that your Facebook feed is composed of people from your geographically limited social circle? In other words, would it work if you used your real name but the set of people who receive your messages and the set of people who can associate your real name with your in-person identity are non-overlapping. You're essentially asking if strict anonymity is necessary or if pseudonyms would be sufficient.
- saraid216 13y ago
  This difference has nothing to do with real names or anonymity. It has to do with the fact that your FB friends have something to lose in that context: namely, their personal connections to mutual friends.
  - ameister14 13y ago
    So, do you think they would have anything to lose by posting the same comments elsewhere using their real names? Personally, I am less likely to comment if my real name (coupled with a real-life social profile) is attached to the comment, whether or not I am posting directly on the social network my name is attached to.
RRRA 13y ago
So long for people in danger, in need of health information, that are LGBT and need support, etc... How can such a troll article get so high?!
deleted 13y ago
[deleted]
calcsam 13y ago
High school all over again...
nswanberg 13y ago
It might have been helpful to distinguish between anonymity within small groups (Secret) vs anonymity in large groups (4chan). In 4chan, particularly on /b/, there are so many anonymous participants that it's very unlikely that one person would recognize another. Someone could write something personal about another person, and it seems unlikely that anyone would care, and certainly no-one would remember. There are few real-world consequences. (I found a fun paper on anonymity in 4chan by merely searching for "studies on anonymity" http://projects.csail.mit.edu/chanthropology/4chan.pdf http://projects.csail.mit.edu/chanthropology/4chan.pdf) But in Secret, part of the point is to exchange information about the real world. This seems to be much more likely to have ill effects, possibly like the ones gruesome referred to in the "Rumor Monger" software at Apple that he mentioned elsewhere in this thread. Has anyone found anything interesting about small group anonymity? Is that a useful distinction?
facepalm 13y ago
My account will probably soon be killed on HN - like many before them. They all die around the 30 karma mark, presumably because of the many downvotes by feminists. I tend to be outspoken on feminist topics, which have become rather frequent on HN. My point is: nasty things are not the only things you can only say in anonymity. It's also required for opinions that are not aligned with the mainstream. I come from Germany - we have learned here that the mainstream is not always right. I keep considering to write about feminism in my blog, but I am actually worried about crazy people on the internet targeting me. I don't really hide - I've voiced my opinion with my real name as well. But I don't feel very confident about it. Real names are perhaps fine for tech bloggers, but there are too many subjects where they really hamper honest discussion.
- deleted 13y ago
  [deleted]
- icebraining 13y ago
  Funny this theme cropped up, I just watched a production of Ibsen's An Enemy of the People [1], where he makes a strong argument against the wisdom of the crowds. That said, HN is really not the best place for honest discussion about controversial topics; the community is incapable of dealing with them and the software strongly discourages them. As someone who enjoys discussing any viewpoint, even those I strongly oppose, I find it somewhat disturbing how easily people censor what they dislike. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Enemy_of_the_People http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Enemy_of_the_People
  - facepalm 13y ago
    Thanks for the reading advice, I'll download it to my kindle :-)
- sockypuppy 13y ago
  > [Anonymity i]s also required for opinions that are not aligned with the mainstream. As someone whose political beliefs align less than one hundred percent with the "standard SF liberal" position on HN, I feel this pain. For example, I'm rather skeptical that gay rights are a Good Thing -- yet I'm also very afraid that I'll be permanently tarred and feathered as a bigot, and permanently lose opportunities, if I post that sentiment under an account that can be connected to my real identity. Whenever I bring it up, one side of the debate starts quoting Scripture and the other side says that anyone who questions their views, or has the least bit of skepticism, is worse than Hitler. I honestly don't know how to initiate a rational discussion of the issue. And I especially suspect that the side that immediately dismisses any other line of thinking by calling names as loudly as possible does so to cover weaknesses in their argument. It's not that I have it in for gays; rather, it's that no one's ever explained to me the argument for why the gay rights movement is a Good Thing, in a way that I find convincing. Based on my own analysis, it seems to be a weak position [1] -- perhaps not one which should be adopted, and certainly not an axiom which is beyond reproach or questioning of assumptions. And I'm a stubborn, independent thinker -- as a matter of principle, I refuse to believe something simply because it's popular among the crowd I hang out with -- or because one side has declared the opposition to be heretics. (Fun thought experiment: s/bigot/heretic/) [1] Basically, I think our society should treat homosexuality / bisexuality as it treats adultery -- nobody goes to jail or gets their life destroyed as long as any sexual activity involves only consenting adults. But it's a lifestyle choice that people should disapprove of, not least because it's disruptive to the family structure consisting of children raised by two parents of opposite sex in a committed relationship, which -- all else being equal -- is the best environment for a child to grow up in. Also, I'm skeptical of the claim that homosexuality is not a choice -- if a person doesn't choose who they have sex with, why is rape a crime? I'm certain many readers will object to the above, but I haven't been able to get someone to make a cogent argument that actually addresses my points; everyone just screams "DIE IN A FIRE" at the top of their lungs at me when I bring this up in a liberal place like HN.
argumentum 13y ago
I also deleted the app pretty quickly .. but mainly because of its annoying push notifications sent every time "someone I knew" posted something. There was only one nasty personal attack that I saw during my brief use, and it was about a fairly well known CEO by a putative (and potentially disgruntled) employee. As to Sam's argument, it's certainly important to consider the ramifications of anonymity on civility: as users of HN we know how quickly things can degenerate. In an app like Secret, it could get even worse. Since the posts you see are from either contacts or contacts of contacts, it's not hard to deduce whether a scandalous rumor is realistic. Thus, revelations can be much more damaging and with the attendant network effects, function like high school bullying. We shouldn't forget, however, that anonymity has great benefits as well: the ability to say things you really think without the fear of social & political persecution, similarly whistleblowing. Confessing your mistakes anonymously may take a load of your back and let you move on to better things. Ideally, I want to live in a society where people say what they mean, and mean what they say. Where free speech is not merely theory but practice. I also want to live in a society where we treat each other with the respect that human beings deserve. Part of the respect that human beings deserve is the respect for their right to speak freely without threat of persecution. As a practical matter, this means the right to speak under their own name as well as the right to speak anonymously.
badman_ting 13y ago
Anonymity is a tradeoff, and in my opinion it is hopelessly incorrect to focus on only one side of the tradeoff. It's like saying oxygen is bad because it's corrosive -- true, but it also happens to be essential to life. There are times when anonymity can help people who are really in danger or who hope to call attention to broken systems. But you're never going to see that if you're focused on grousing about people being jerks. (I suspect that people do this as a way of elevating themselves above the muck, so to speak, but that is another topic entirely.)
ameister14 13y ago
You don't need a more extreme example like dissidents or protesters to make a case for anonymity. Pseudonyms have been used by people to spark intellectual and political debate for hundreds (thousands?) of years. When people feel like they are the only one that espouses an idea, they are less likely to share it publicly for fear of shame. When they are given anonymity, they can share freely and potentially find that their idea is actually commonly shared.
smoyer 13y ago
There are some individuals that SHOULD have negative things said about them. I'm not trying to be controversial but why do we insist that everyone deserves sugary platitudes? It would be interesting to tally positive, neutral and negative comment counts for each person mentioned.
JimboOmega 13y ago
> they need anonymity for mean things and things they are embarrassed about In my mind, it's the "embarrassed about" point that makes such an app interesting. Facebook, twitter, etc, is all cleaned up - the things you aren't exactly proud of, the dark moments, etc, are removed. Which leads to a whole lot feeling like everyone on Facebook is doing better than you. It's nice to see the darker side of people, sometimes.
mey 13y ago
http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/ http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/
zimbatm 13y ago
> Anonymity breeds meanness Only if the users aren't invested in their identity. It has also been shown that positive anonymous communities can be built.
naner 13y ago
This person seems to be confusing anonymity with lack of accountability. Back in the day, when people didn't use their real names on websites, communities relied on accountability to maintain good behavior. Some ways this is done are through reputation systems or moderation tools. Your real name wasn't known, but if you wanted to participate in any community you had to follow the community rules. Anonymity wasn't a hindrance to good behavior. Facebook and other social networks don't usually have much accountability built in. You can be an ass on Facebook and not face any consequences. So Facebook actually only maintains "good behavior" by allowing closed communities (All my friends are well behaved, so all I see on Facebook is good behavior. If I behave badly my friends will react negatively, etc.). If you were able to look outside your own well-behaved bubble, you would see that real-name social networks aren't able to enforce good social norms. They just reinforce the social norms that are already dominant in your friend group. An issue with the forced-identity aspect of social networks is you are only allowed one identity. You are discouraged from activities/communities/discussions that are sensitive or embarrassing or not accepted by your dominant peer group. Not to say there is nothing good about these real-name social networks. They would have never reached such a broad cross-section of people with everyone registering via pseudo-anonymous handles. Using real names makes things more palatable and manageable for non-technically minded people.
ANTSANTS 13y ago
Shii's essay on the strengths of anonymous communities is still the best I've read on the topic. It comes off as somewhat naive, being written in 2004 and updated in 2006, before 4chan had really exploded in popularity and set in stone what people think about when they hear the word "anonymous," but I think his assessment is still valid even in the 4chan of today. Forcing users to check their vanity at the door really does cut down on the superfluous garbage and keeps the conversation about the topic (or wherever the topic meanders) and not about the people having the conversation. If I could add a postscript to that essay, I'd say that it's 4chan's lax administrative policies, distaste for moderation and censorship, and the incredible size of the community that give it its unruly flavor, not the fact that the posters are anonymous. In the smaller, more carefully moderated anonymous communities I've been a part of, things are much closer to the ideals shii describes. http://wakaba.c3.cx/shii/shiichan http://wakaba.c3.cx/shii/shiichan
geuis 13y ago
Usually people share a link to the app of piece of content they are denigrating. Might someone share a link to this "Secret" app he speaks about.

95 points by gatsby 13y ago

" Anonymous social networks have been (thus far, anyway) in the category of services that get worse as they get bigger--unlike services like Facebook or Twitter that get better as they get bigger"

mikeg8 13y ago
your point here?

sneak 13y ago

> In fact, the closer to real identity internet forums get, the less they seem to decay. Wow, I had no idea 4chan is so irrelevant. Someone should tell them.

apetresc 13y ago
It's quite clear from his context that he meant "decay" as in "become mean and nasty", not "become unpopular." In that sense, yes, 4chan is absolutely a perfect example.
- moot 13y ago
  Also wrong.
  - apetresc 13y ago
    Which part? I know you're the creator of 4chan, and are necessarily going to see it "at its best", but surely even you must agree that many parts of it (especially /b/) behave badly?
    - alexeisadeski3 13y ago
      Less anonymity = discussion tends towards staid, boring, repetitive, meaningless, dishonest, inoffensive More anonymity = discussion tends towards thought provoking, creative, honest, offensive
    - Zikes 13y ago
      That's a false correlation. There are many other boards on 4chan that are equally anonymous but have thriving and generally amicable communities.
nodata 13y ago
and reddit.
nswanberg 13y ago
Sarcasm is an effective technique against one's parents when one's methods of expression are limited and one would like to, for example, express that one does not genuinely want to take out the trash, especially given the fact that one's sibling has not taken out the trash for a week AND LIFE IS SO UNFAIR!!1!, but I am sure you are older than that and can do better. How is 4chan culturally relevant? If it is, is it more or less relevant than reddit? How about twitter? What cultural artifacts has it produced that could not have been created elsewhere? Are these cultural artifacts timeless or ephemeral? Can it produce something beyond culture? Could a work of literature or science emerge from 4chan? What would we lose if it didn't exist? How does anonymity help? Does it help teenagers forge an identity? Adults? Or does it help foster a group bond between like minded folks? Does the anonymity and lack of an account history allow one to experiment with ideas without being beholden to a past identity? Is it similar to a videogame in that respect, where one can do and say what one wants without consequences? Can such a world coexist with a service like Facebook or Google Plus? Does this allow people who are or believe they are marginalized by society to thrive or is this a place where privileged bullies wear masks and sharpen their taunts? If it were possible, would Facebook or Google Plus benefit from a /b/ mode? What would it look like? How does all this relate to Secret? Would Secret be used as a therapy session? A way to attack enemies? A way to spread knowledge? Or pure entertainment? I don't have much of an opinion on 4chan or Secret, but find anonymity and privacy fascinating. I think the point you and moot are raising is a great addition to what Sam wrote, and look forward to reading what moot is going to write. In the meant time, I would love that the discussion went beyond sarcasm and two word rebuttals.
- smoyer 13y ago
  Sarcasm can also be an art form.

vezzy-fnord 13y ago

In fact, the closer to real identity internet forums get, the less they seem to decay. Define decay. People voicing strong opinions or even being assholes to a certain degree doesn't count. It's a normal part of every community. Usenet was full of legendary flame wars, yet the level of discourse was still very high, and most people used real names to identify themselves. Otherwise, all you get is a hugbox echo chamber where people with personality disorders and brittle egos thrive in a mutual self-affirmation, eradicating all discourse.

moot 13y ago

This is completely and utterly wrong, and only furthers my belief that nobody in Silicon Valley actually "gets" anonymity. I'll try to write a real response tonight on my blog (http://chrishateswriting.com http://chrishateswriting.com)

harryh 13y ago
Really looking forward to your point of view on this moot.
eurleif 13y ago
I would love it if you discussed Omegle/ChatRoulette in your post. (Disclaimer: I made Omegle, and obviously I have an interest in you pimping my site. But I also think it would be interesting to see you analyze how anonymity applies to it, since you probably have more perspective on it than I do.)
- smoyer 13y ago
  I have great for doing sociology experiments on Omegle ... You'd be amazed at what I've learned about people's motivations and expectations just by gaming them slightly. Oh ... There have been a couple of awkward instances when I've tried to go there in person too!
deleted 13y ago
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teaneedz 13y ago
> This is completely and utterly wrong, and only furthers my belief that nobody in Silicon Valley actually "gets" anonymity. I tend to agree with this statement. Anonymity and Pseudonymity (two diff things) type conversations will decay if the community allows it and the audience on the medium encourages the behavior. I've seen plenty of negative "real name" conversations. I've also seen plenty of great *nym conversations too. SV misses the point on this in my opinion as well. [edited] I just want to add the original content and tone also sets the stage for what happens in the comment sections. In the case of Secret, I'm a little bleh on the app but think the UI is sweet. I haven't seen the negative side of it yet nor have I posted negative comments either.

deleted 13y ago

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Ruska 13y ago
Exactly. I censor myself all the time in any online setting that isn't anonymous. I'll have my contribution to the conversation typed out, edited, and then I think on whether someone somewhere could possible take it the wrong way, or if it could come back to bite me. It's usually not worth posting (to me) if it's a controversial topic - there's very little to be gained, but a lot to lose.
- BlackDeath3 13y ago
  I really wish this was not the case. Though it may seem to many like there is very little to be gained by honesty, I'd love to see a world where people weren't afraid to say what they thought, to speak their mind. I get tired of living in such a sterile world. The thing that keeps me from disclosing identity in many venues isn't so much "what will people who know me think of what I said" as it is "don't give blackhats any more reason to grief me over things I've said". Hopefully that is something I myself can get over eventually.

jsnk 13y ago

I can see Secret becoming popular. I've obsessed with the topic of anonymity online. I created dmtri.com in order to foster anonymity online. I believe that people long to be honest with themselves, but the avenues of doing so is extremely limited and difficult. I hope that Secret will be one of few outlets for people like that. The problem I have with Secret is that, in order to be marketable to marketers and VCs, Secret weakened the purpose of anonymity online. Straight honesty. Without the ability to be honest with yourself and others, anonymity online is only half good. The community rules they have are destructive to people who want to be honest with themselves.

jhonovich 13y ago

Translation: Silicon Valley big shots don't like people criticizing them at will, ergo this will fail.

Kapura 13y ago

If 4chan.org has taught the world anything, the first thing that people will do with total anonymity is decay into the behaviours that they WANT to express, but society deems unacceptable. That forbidden fruit of being able to shit-talk without consequence will never stop tasting sweet, but I think that it speaks more to the character of the shit-talker than medium. Thus, I think that the "solution" to these sorts of nasty gossip apps is what Mr. Altman has done: simply refusing to be party to the gossip. You may miss out on juicy deets of who's done what with whom, but some things are more important than two minutes of entertainment. It's really up to potential users to decide if they want to get sucked into this sort of negative attention funnel. edit: I see moot is going to be writing a response to this; I look forward to what he has to say. He is, in my opinion, the foremost expert on internet anonymity (or at least he's on 4chan a lot) so I think that his perspective should be considered highly.

lmm 13y ago
It always seemed to me like moot himself never really quite understood what he'd created (see snacks' infamous "you don't get it" from way back - though I'm having trouble tracking it down. Maybe he took it off the internet?). (Still, I'm interested to see what he'll say)
leobelle 13y ago
The behaviors that some people may want, and those that don't run for the doors. This may give you the idea that everyone is behaving that way, since it's entirely anonymous, but be assured I don't visit 4chan. 4chan is a cesspool.
Zigurd 13y ago
4chan is like any subculture that gets popular enough to be noticed. Most people condemning it have not experienced it enough to come to an informed opinion.
- Kapura 13y ago
  I hate to derail this topic to talk about 4chan, but I think that 4chan is many-faceted (and, indeed, the level of anonymity has varied across time and from board to board on the website) so I'm not certain an informed opinion could ever be COMPLETELY informed. Certainly, somebody lurking on /b/ for a few months might have something to say, but they're missing out on the sub-boards, which have their own board cultures and memes in microcosm. Again, moot goes to 4chan a lot, so I'm waiting to see what he has to say.

xacaxulu 13y ago

This probably says a lot more about the author's need for anonymity than anything else. Yeah, persecuted Iranian journalists only need anonymity to "be mean". Derp. Yeah, Chinese dissidents only need it when they want to say something naughty. Living in a bubble is all comfy but let's not imagine that everyone in the world operates from the same luxurious position when deciding who needs anonymity and why...especially when your premise is based on scanning 4chan or Reddit.

sama 13y ago
these are examples of real need for anonymity, but something like secret would be a bad platform for it.

sama 13y ago

I should clarify what I meant by "decay"--services can continue to grow, but if the quality (defined loosely) goes below a certain point, I think it's hard to make them into really valuable businesses.

mcantelon 13y ago
Reddit is anonymous, one of the fastest growing sites on the Internet, and Bill Gates is doing a QA on it as we speak. Seems like a site's culture/ranking algorithms determine quality rather than whether or not a site's anonymous.
- aidenn0 13y ago
  Reddit is pseudonymous; the difference is important, as if it were truly anonymous Gates would not be able to do an AMA
  - argumentum 13y ago
    It's more correct to say that Reddit (like HN) is a hybrid of anonymity and identity. It can be truly anonymous (you can quickly create a throwaway account) or you can "prove" to the admins that you are who you say you are (like Bill Gates).
    - aidenn0 13y ago
      That sounds like a definition of "pseudonymous" to me. Particularly since moot has claimed for a while that part of what makes 4chan works is that you can't maintain an identity.
- blah32497 13y ago
  arguably reddit has also "decayed" quite a bit The quality of the conversation has gotten worse and worse, things are targeted towards the lowest common denominator. You need to go to specific subreddits or really dig around in the shit to find the gems. The flip side is that it generates a ton of content. To the signal to noise is horrible, but in aggregate there is more interesting stuff going on then on slashdot or wherever

higherpurpose 13y ago

I haven't used it, but from what I understand it's an app where people tell secrets about something or someone. So that may be the first reason you may not like it, especially if it's about you. It doesn't have much to do with anonymity, but with the fact that it's supposed to be a community around divulging people's secrets. So even though it's "anonymous", it's actually anti-privacy. Second, I'm anonymous on HN and I'm anonymous on Reddit. This should prove that what you need is not to ban anonymity, but to have good enough voting and filtering mechanisms, and a decent culture inside the community. I'm also not entirely sure Twitter is getting better. If it is, it's only because you chose to follow certain people. But I imagine with Twitter growing its audience, a lot more of the "normal people", who may not be as educated, join Twitter and say a lot of nasty stuff online, much like they would offline. As for Facebook, again, it may have gotten "better" for you because of its filtering mechanism, and because in time it learned to show you only certain types of posts. So from your point of view, I think the main problems are with the type of community this is in the first place, and the "etiquette" for that community, and with Secret.ly being a new app and the founders not having enough time to polish things up.

efnysien 13y ago

Anonymity, and the effectiveness of anonymity has a lot to do with how the site, or product is structured. With secret, you have the app directly plugged into your friends-list, and while the content is 'anonymous', it's a watered down version of true anonymity. All apps like this serve to do is breed insecurity and malcontent amongst our peers. Now imagine another version of Secret, where you truly anonymize message sends. Instead of seeing content from your friends lists, you see content from the world-over. Instead of some sort of petty, mean-girls-esque hate journal, it could be a modern, 21'st century version of the confessional (not that I'm a fan of the confessional, but you gotta admit there's something rather tantalizing in the concept). SV seems to be stuck in a mire where product has to revolve around one's social group. What happened to the days of good old voyeurism?

ultimoo 13y ago

"Give a man a mask and he'll show his true face."

teddyh 13y ago
“You must discover whose face lies behind this mask, but you must never know my face. Is that quite clear?” — V

gruseom 13y ago

This reminded me of an excellent post the other day about an anonymous messaging network ("Rumor Monger") that ran inside Apple until management shut it down: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7204558 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7204558 It got very little discussion, so if you didn't see it, I recommend it.

soneca 13y ago

I think the author had a negative emotional reaction to Secret and jumped too quickly to what he thought was a rational analysis of the theme. He grabbed a few top of mind examples that supported his theory and tried to guess what was wrong with Secret, then extrapolated to anonymity in general. Had he slept on the text or sent to a few friends to review it, I could bet it would become different on the conclusions.

drum 13y ago

Anonymity isn't as black and white as everyone keeps portraying it. Take HN for example - we all have usernames, some of which are our real names. Sites like 4Chan and LikeALittle - all harbor true anonymity. I agree with Sam that those sites decay over time. However, sites like Reddit and HN that are built around pseudo-anonymity and voting have been able to produce thoughtful discussion

rgbrgb 13y ago

I've been taking a deeper look at reddit in the last couple of weeks and I'd say real-name social networks decay in a different direction. My Facebook wall is an extremely shallow stream self-promotion, one-liners, and food pics -- very little actual discussion. As the OP notes, it is very rare that anyone says anything remotely controversial (or interesting). Reddit, on the other hand feels very much alive. People talk about their feelings, confide in each other, ask interesting questions. Not sure if it's just the anonymity, it also has to do with the fact that the community is much bigger so you can ask anything and someone will have an answer. However, the anonymity certainly allows for that large group to come together for (often) coherent conversations.

anologwintermut 13y ago
Do you think the difference in reddit anonymity, or that your Facebook feed is composed of people from your geographically limited social circle?
- AnthonyMouse 13y ago
  > Do you think the difference in reddit anonymity, or that your Facebook feed is composed of people from your geographically limited social circle? In other words, would it work if you used your real name but the set of people who receive your messages and the set of people who can associate your real name with your in-person identity are non-overlapping. You're essentially asking if strict anonymity is necessary or if pseudonyms would be sufficient.
saraid216 13y ago
This difference has nothing to do with real names or anonymity. It has to do with the fact that your FB friends have something to lose in that context: namely, their personal connections to mutual friends.
- ameister14 13y ago
  So, do you think they would have anything to lose by posting the same comments elsewhere using their real names? Personally, I am less likely to comment if my real name (coupled with a real-life social profile) is attached to the comment, whether or not I am posting directly on the social network my name is attached to.

RRRA 13y ago

So long for people in danger, in need of health information, that are LGBT and need support, etc... How can such a troll article get so high?!

deleted 13y ago

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calcsam 13y ago

High school all over again...

nswanberg 13y ago

It might have been helpful to distinguish between anonymity within small groups (Secret) vs anonymity in large groups (4chan). In 4chan, particularly on /b/, there are so many anonymous participants that it's very unlikely that one person would recognize another. Someone could write something personal about another person, and it seems unlikely that anyone would care, and certainly no-one would remember. There are few real-world consequences. (I found a fun paper on anonymity in 4chan by merely searching for "studies on anonymity" http://projects.csail.mit.edu/chanthropology/4chan.pdf http://projects.csail.mit.edu/chanthropology/4chan.pdf) But in Secret, part of the point is to exchange information about the real world. This seems to be much more likely to have ill effects, possibly like the ones gruesome referred to in the "Rumor Monger" software at Apple that he mentioned elsewhere in this thread. Has anyone found anything interesting about small group anonymity? Is that a useful distinction?

facepalm 13y ago

My account will probably soon be killed on HN - like many before them. They all die around the 30 karma mark, presumably because of the many downvotes by feminists. I tend to be outspoken on feminist topics, which have become rather frequent on HN. My point is: nasty things are not the only things you can only say in anonymity. It's also required for opinions that are not aligned with the mainstream. I come from Germany - we have learned here that the mainstream is not always right. I keep considering to write about feminism in my blog, but I am actually worried about crazy people on the internet targeting me. I don't really hide - I've voiced my opinion with my real name as well. But I don't feel very confident about it. Real names are perhaps fine for tech bloggers, but there are too many subjects where they really hamper honest discussion.

deleted 13y ago
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icebraining 13y ago
Funny this theme cropped up, I just watched a production of Ibsen's An Enemy of the People [1], where he makes a strong argument against the wisdom of the crowds. That said, HN is really not the best place for honest discussion about controversial topics; the community is incapable of dealing with them and the software strongly discourages them. As someone who enjoys discussing any viewpoint, even those I strongly oppose, I find it somewhat disturbing how easily people censor what they dislike. [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Enemy_of_the_People http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/An_Enemy_of_the_People
- facepalm 13y ago
  Thanks for the reading advice, I'll download it to my kindle :-)
sockypuppy 13y ago
> [Anonymity i]s also required for opinions that are not aligned with the mainstream. As someone whose political beliefs align less than one hundred percent with the "standard SF liberal" position on HN, I feel this pain. For example, I'm rather skeptical that gay rights are a Good Thing -- yet I'm also very afraid that I'll be permanently tarred and feathered as a bigot, and permanently lose opportunities, if I post that sentiment under an account that can be connected to my real identity. Whenever I bring it up, one side of the debate starts quoting Scripture and the other side says that anyone who questions their views, or has the least bit of skepticism, is worse than Hitler. I honestly don't know how to initiate a rational discussion of the issue. And I especially suspect that the side that immediately dismisses any other line of thinking by calling names as loudly as possible does so to cover weaknesses in their argument. It's not that I have it in for gays; rather, it's that no one's ever explained to me the argument for why the gay rights movement is a Good Thing, in a way that I find convincing. Based on my own analysis, it seems to be a weak position [1] -- perhaps not one which should be adopted, and certainly not an axiom which is beyond reproach or questioning of assumptions. And I'm a stubborn, independent thinker -- as a matter of principle, I refuse to believe something simply because it's popular among the crowd I hang out with -- or because one side has declared the opposition to be heretics. (Fun thought experiment: s/bigot/heretic/) [1] Basically, I think our society should treat homosexuality / bisexuality as it treats adultery -- nobody goes to jail or gets their life destroyed as long as any sexual activity involves only consenting adults. But it's a lifestyle choice that people should disapprove of, not least because it's disruptive to the family structure consisting of children raised by two parents of opposite sex in a committed relationship, which -- all else being equal -- is the best environment for a child to grow up in. Also, I'm skeptical of the claim that homosexuality is not a choice -- if a person doesn't choose who they have sex with, why is rape a crime? I'm certain many readers will object to the above, but I haven't been able to get someone to make a cogent argument that actually addresses my points; everyone just screams "DIE IN A FIRE" at the top of their lungs at me when I bring this up in a liberal place like HN.

argumentum 13y ago

I also deleted the app pretty quickly .. but mainly because of its annoying push notifications sent every time "someone I knew" posted something. There was only one nasty personal attack that I saw during my brief use, and it was about a fairly well known CEO by a putative (and potentially disgruntled) employee. As to Sam's argument, it's certainly important to consider the ramifications of anonymity on civility: as users of HN we know how quickly things can degenerate. In an app like Secret, it could get even worse. Since the posts you see are from either contacts or contacts of contacts, it's not hard to deduce whether a scandalous rumor is realistic. Thus, revelations can be much more damaging and with the attendant network effects, function like high school bullying. We shouldn't forget, however, that anonymity has great benefits as well: the ability to say things you really think without the fear of social & political persecution, similarly whistleblowing. Confessing your mistakes anonymously may take a load of your back and let you move on to better things. Ideally, I want to live in a society where people say what they mean, and mean what they say. Where free speech is not merely theory but practice. I also want to live in a society where we treat each other with the respect that human beings deserve. Part of the respect that human beings deserve is the respect for their right to speak freely without threat of persecution. As a practical matter, this means the right to speak under their own name as well as the right to speak anonymously.

badman_ting 13y ago

Anonymity is a tradeoff, and in my opinion it is hopelessly incorrect to focus on only one side of the tradeoff. It's like saying oxygen is bad because it's corrosive -- true, but it also happens to be essential to life. There are times when anonymity can help people who are really in danger or who hope to call attention to broken systems. But you're never going to see that if you're focused on grousing about people being jerks. (I suspect that people do this as a way of elevating themselves above the muck, so to speak, but that is another topic entirely.)

ameister14 13y ago

You don't need a more extreme example like dissidents or protesters to make a case for anonymity. Pseudonyms have been used by people to spark intellectual and political debate for hundreds (thousands?) of years. When people feel like they are the only one that espouses an idea, they are less likely to share it publicly for fear of shame. When they are given anonymity, they can share freely and potentially find that their idea is actually commonly shared.

smoyer 13y ago

There are some individuals that SHOULD have negative things said about them. I'm not trying to be controversial but why do we insist that everyone deserves sugary platitudes? It would be interesting to tally positive, neutral and negative comment counts for each person mentioned.

JimboOmega 13y ago

> they need anonymity for mean things and things they are embarrassed about In my mind, it's the "embarrassed about" point that makes such an app interesting. Facebook, twitter, etc, is all cleaned up - the things you aren't exactly proud of, the dark moments, etc, are removed. Which leads to a whole lot feeling like everyone on Facebook is doing better than you. It's nice to see the darker side of people, sometimes.

mey 13y ago

http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/ http://www.penny-arcade.com/comic/2004/3/19/

zimbatm 13y ago

> Anonymity breeds meanness Only if the users aren't invested in their identity. It has also been shown that positive anonymous communities can be built.

naner 13y ago

This person seems to be confusing anonymity with lack of accountability. Back in the day, when people didn't use their real names on websites, communities relied on accountability to maintain good behavior. Some ways this is done are through reputation systems or moderation tools. Your real name wasn't known, but if you wanted to participate in any community you had to follow the community rules. Anonymity wasn't a hindrance to good behavior. Facebook and other social networks don't usually have much accountability built in. You can be an ass on Facebook and not face any consequences. So Facebook actually only maintains "good behavior" by allowing closed communities (All my friends are well behaved, so all I see on Facebook is good behavior. If I behave badly my friends will react negatively, etc.). If you were able to look outside your own well-behaved bubble, you would see that real-name social networks aren't able to enforce good social norms. They just reinforce the social norms that are already dominant in your friend group. An issue with the forced-identity aspect of social networks is you are only allowed one identity. You are discouraged from activities/communities/discussions that are sensitive or embarrassing or not accepted by your dominant peer group. Not to say there is nothing good about these real-name social networks. They would have never reached such a broad cross-section of people with everyone registering via pseudo-anonymous handles. Using real names makes things more palatable and manageable for non-technically minded people.

ANTSANTS 13y ago

Shii's essay on the strengths of anonymous communities is still the best I've read on the topic. It comes off as somewhat naive, being written in 2004 and updated in 2006, before 4chan had really exploded in popularity and set in stone what people think about when they hear the word "anonymous," but I think his assessment is still valid even in the 4chan of today. Forcing users to check their vanity at the door really does cut down on the superfluous garbage and keeps the conversation about the topic (or wherever the topic meanders) and not about the people having the conversation. If I could add a postscript to that essay, I'd say that it's 4chan's lax administrative policies, distaste for moderation and censorship, and the incredible size of the community that give it its unruly flavor, not the fact that the posters are anonymous. In the smaller, more carefully moderated anonymous communities I've been a part of, things are much closer to the ideals shii describes. http://wakaba.c3.cx/shii/shiichan http://wakaba.c3.cx/shii/shiichan

geuis 13y ago

Usually people share a link to the app of piece of content they are denigrating. Might someone share a link to this "Secret" app he speaks about.