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>I never said that no feminists are mothers. Besides I think a lot of feminists don't really understand what they are even fighting for. If you define feminism

by aestra 13y ago

>I never said that no feminists are mothers. Besides I think a lot of feminists don't really understand what they are even fighting for. If you define feminism as "equality for men and women", most people would probably say they are feminists. And that's exactly the point! You have no idea what you're even fighting against. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism >Feminism is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.[1][2] This includes seeking to establish equal opportunities for women in education and employment. A feminist advocates or supports the rights and equality of women.[3] >Of course feminists think staying at home with children is a horrible ordeal No they do not. >If you read so many studies, you probably also read that childless women actually tend to earn more than men. No they do not. >The idea seems rather that spending time with children is horrible and men should shoulder their equal half of the burden instead of having fun at work. No it is not. >Feminism seems to assume that women simply want the same things as men. Feminist want women to have the same opportunities as men and men to have the same opportunities as women. >In result there will be no excuse to stay at home with children, and both father and mother will earn less There are other family arrangements besides father and mother. >Did your mother take time off to spend with you then? My father never worked outside the home when I was growing up. My mother always did. This was because my father was disabled. >Take women in IT - how many samples did they even find for female programmers? http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gender-pay-gap/ http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gend... http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-11-12/mapping-the-pay-gap-for-women-in-tech-how-three-cities-stack-up http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-11-12/mapping-the-... >If you want real equality and you measure that aspect, you would have to force women to go back to work as quickly as possible after child birth, so that the fathers can have their turn at staying at home. That's stupid. These are individual choices. Come on. Nobody wants to force anyone to do anything they don't want to do. >but they seem to have a hard time accepting that people want different things, and that perhaps women WANT to stay home more often than men Sure, and they are free to do so. NOBODY SAID THEY SHOULDN'T. We aren't talking about that and you know that. We are talking about equal pay for equal work. Stop attacking a stawman. >It's not, unfortunately. It is the idea that women are victims and should get special treatment because of that NO! Of course your mind is made up and no amount of facts and reason can change it.

facepalm 13y ago
"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism" Well look at how feminists act and what their claims and complains are, not what the definition of the word is on wikipedia. "Of course feminists think staying at home with children is a horrible ordeal No they do not." The complaints don't make sense without the assumption that staying home with children is horrible. It is implied. "There are other family arrangements besides father and mother." Whatever do you mean? "http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gend..." http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gend... From that article: "In 2012, as in 2002, among full-time, year-round workers, women were paid 77 percent of what men were paid." So they, too don't cite the honest number of 4% that you get if you take into account things like hours worked, areas of work, part time, and so on. How reliable is that? And why do you even link to that, if it doesn't address the question of how many women in IT they found for their comparison? "http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-11-12/mapping-the-..." http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-11-12/mapping-the-... From that article: "The analysis doesn’t control for different levels of education, work experience, or other factors that affect compensation" Just what I said about those studies... "Nobody wants to force anyone to do anything they don't want to do." If you stay home and don't make a career, you are a thorn in the side of feminism. Try it and see how much respect you'll earn from feminists. In any case I have the impression that the differences in careers between men and women are seen as a problem by feminists. "We are talking about equal pay for equal work. Stop attacking a stawman." I question the validity of these studies, that is I question that they really compare equal work. "Of course your mind is made up and no amount of facts and reason can change it." So is yours. Well this is just a discussion forum and I can only say it the way I see it. Maybe if you pay attention, over time you'll come to see it too. You can see it in every feminist article.

by aestra 13y ago

facepalm 13y ago

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feminism" Well look at how feminists act and what their claims and complains are, not what the definition of the word is on wikipedia. "Of course feminists think staying at home with children is a horrible ordeal No they do not." The complaints don't make sense without the assumption that staying home with children is horrible. It is implied. "There are other family arrangements besides father and mother." Whatever do you mean? "http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gend..." http://www.aauw.org/research/the-simple-truth-about-the-gend... From that article: "In 2012, as in 2002, among full-time, year-round workers, women were paid 77 percent of what men were paid." So they, too don't cite the honest number of 4% that you get if you take into account things like hours worked, areas of work, part time, and so on. How reliable is that? And why do you even link to that, if it doesn't address the question of how many women in IT they found for their comparison? "http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-11-12/mapping-the-..." http://www.businessweek.com/articles/2013-11-12/mapping-the-... From that article: "The analysis doesn’t control for different levels of education, work experience, or other factors that affect compensation" Just what I said about those studies... "Nobody wants to force anyone to do anything they don't want to do." If you stay home and don't make a career, you are a thorn in the side of feminism. Try it and see how much respect you'll earn from feminists. In any case I have the impression that the differences in careers between men and women are seen as a problem by feminists. "We are talking about equal pay for equal work. Stop attacking a stawman." I question the validity of these studies, that is I question that they really compare equal work. "Of course your mind is made up and no amount of facts and reason can change it." So is yours. Well this is just a discussion forum and I can only say it the way I see it. Maybe if you pay attention, over time you'll come to see it too. You can see it in every feminist article.