5 ms·

"This is mostly due to subconscious cultural influences and socialization of women rather than outright discrimination." And again your bias shows. What if the

"This is mostly due to subconscious cultural influences and socialization of women rather than outright discrimination." And again your bias shows. What if there are natural reasons? Your assumption seems to be that women and men should act exactly equal, given "equality". What if that assumption is wrong? I already gave one example - women invest a lot of energy into child birth, so it seems natural that they have a higher preference, or rather privilege, to spend time with their children. I can not read all of the studies you linked to. A lot of them are flawed anyway (I have read many of the like already). But in general I find it interesting. But when you find such a thing, like women asking for promotions less, why not learn from it and ask for a promotion? I am not opposed to women trying to learn how to get ahead. Everybody should do that. I am opposed to unfairly blaming other people. "Women's achievements, capabilities and potential are seen as much less than men by society." This one for example is ridiculous. Can you point to the study that shows that? I can think of many famous women. There is this meme going around of the female scientists who are supposedly cheated out of their fame ( https://plus.google.com/115858612877723984178/posts/Hphw8ErSbzr https://plus.google.com/115858612877723984178/posts/Hphw8ErS... ). I looked them up on Wikipedia and the feminist story wasn't true at all. One of those women even had a chemical element named after herself (Lise Meitner). The article you link to about boys in the classroom seems to confirm what I guessed, that boys demand more attention. There is not enough information in that article to form a real conclusion, though.

aestra 13y ago
>But when you find such a thing, like women asking for promotions less, why not learn from it and ask for a promotion? Women are socialized to not ask for what they want from a young age. Many do not realize they can even ask for the things they want. Society tends to view women and men differently when they ask. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/jobs/06pre.html http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/jobs/06pre.html > The messages girls receive — from parents and teachers, from books they read, from movies and television shows they watch, and from behavior of the adults around them — can be so powerful that as women they may not even understand that their reluctance to ask for what they want is a learned behavior, and one that can be unlearned. >More recent research that I conducted with two colleagues, Hannah Bowles and Lei Lai, points to another reason that women don’t ask: They face a much chillier reaction — from men and from women — when they do negotiate for what they want. >Behavior that can lead a man to be seen as ambitious or a go-getter can brand a woman as too pushy and aggressive. She may be called rude names, receive negative evaluations based solely on her personal style instead of her work and find herself closed out of networks or opportunities from which she might benefit. My boss was pleased that I asked him for what I wanted. A lot of women aren’t so lucky. http://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2012/07/02/nice-girls-still-dont-ask-for-what-they-want-why-women-fall-short-at-the-negotiating-table/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2012/07/02/nice-girl... http://www.ncrw.org/LiteratureReviews/Gender-Negotiation http://www.ncrw.org/LiteratureReviews/Gender-Negotiation http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ncmr.12022/abstract http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ncmr.12022/abstra... >Can you point to the study that shows that? I have linked to many that you already refuse to read. Here's some: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/ http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/201... http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/scmsAdmin/uploads/006/923/Adolph,%20K.,%20Mondschein,%20E.%20R.,%20Tamis-LeMonda,%20C.,%20Journ.%20of%20Experimental%20Child%20Psych.,%202000.pdf http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/scmsAdmin/uploads/006/923/Adolph,%... http://www.newsweek.com/why-parents-may-cause-gender-differences-kids-79501 http://www.newsweek.com/why-parents-may-cause-gender-differe... http://www.nature.com/scitable/content/chapter-9-workplace-bias-18255152 http://www.nature.com/scitable/content/chapter-9-workplace-b... http://naturalscience.com/ns/articles/01-08/ns_slee.html http://naturalscience.com/ns/articles/01-08/ns_slee.html >What if there are natural reasons? We can't know that because society treats baby girls different from baby boys at birth. Go take an anthropology class and learn about socialization. Nobody grew up in a bubble. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization
- facepalm 13y ago
  I tried to read more of your links, but I didn't get all of them. "http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/jobs/06pre.html" http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/jobs/06pre.html" This unfortunately doesn't give any details, it's basically just "my research has shown that xyz is true" - an appeal to authority. Maybe there is something to it. But the author has a girl as a kid. I'm a man. You may be surprised to hear that the same things she claims are socialization for girls have also been taught to me. Namely that I should be humble and recognition will come to me and all those things. Those are actually just basic "good behavior" for everyone. Therefore I am sorry, but I remain skeptic. "http://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2012/07/02/nice-girl..." http://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2012/07/02/nice-girl... This link is of horribly low quality. "Studies show that women are less likely to negotiate deals than men for 2 reasons: Women are socialized to place the needs of others first and their own second Women believe that they will be recognized and rewarded for their hard work and dedication " Uh yeah as I said - that is basically what everybody is being taught, not just women. Likewise the advice they give is good for everybody. There are scores of books full of career advice, for men and women. It's not as if men don't need it because they are naturals at it. "http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/201..." http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/201... I knew that one before and it is actually to date one of the few "feminist" papers that I accept as valid. However, I don't think the conclusion of sexism is necessarily correct. It seems clear from that research that men and women alike consider a female applicant less valuable. But what if the concern about the applicant dropping out to become a mother is a major factor of that. Would that really be sexism? To me it seems like a rational and valid reason. It is of course unfortunate for women, but what would be a good solution to counteract it? "We can't know that because society treats baby girls different from baby boys at birth." From that alone it doesn't follow that boys and girls could be raised with arbitrary socialization rules. Those rules probably evolved. Some differences in preferences, or in incentives, are obviously dictated by biology. You've probably heard it before: women need to invest 9 months and the risk of death into a pregnancy. Men just need to invest 10 seconds. I'll try to read more of the papers then I might write more - if HN lets me. Usually they kill my account around the 30 karma points region. So if I don't reply any further, it's because HN killed my account. In that case: it was nice talking to you!
- 13y ago
king_jester 13y ago
> What if there are natural reasons? Your assumption seems to be that women and men should act exactly equal, given "equality". What if that assumption is wrong? I already gave one example - women invest a lot of energy into child birth, so it seems natural that they have a higher preference, or rather privilege, to spend time with their children. We've seen biotruth-y arguments over and over again on this subject, you are going to have to provide something that offers at some least some evidence that such a thing could account for observed socialization patterns with regards to gender. > I can not read all of the studies you linked to. A lot of them are flawed anyway (I have read many of the like already). But in general I find it interesting. But when you find such a thing, like women asking for promotions less, why not learn from it and ask for a promotion? You out of hand have dismissed each article posted by the parent and have provided nothing of your own to talk about the flaw you perceive in those items. This isn't how research and argument work. > This one for example is ridiculous. Can you point to the study that shows that? I can think of many famous women. There is a plethora of evidence about this in a variety of contexts: media representation, women participation in the work force, rates of violent crime experienced by women, and so on. Simple Google searches will give you the most basic of starting points on all of these contexts. > There is this meme going around of the female scientists who are supposedly cheated out of their fame ( https://plus.google.com/115858612877723984178/posts/Hphw8ErS.. https://plus.google.com/115858612877723984178/posts/Hphw8ErS.... ). I looked them up on Wikipedia and the feminist story wasn't true at all. One of those women even had a chemical element named after herself (Lise Meitner). That post is quite accurate. While today some of those things have been corrected after the fact (Lise Meitner is now credited with a Nobel Peace Prize, but did not get awarded at the same time as others), those stories are true. > The article you link to about boys in the classroom seems to confirm what I guessed, that boys demand more attention. There is not enough information in that article to form a real conclusion, though. Classroom gender dynamics is well studied, there are many studies to look at and several books published on the subject. Like all research one article is not going to give you conclusive proof of how things are exactly.
- facepalm 13y ago
  Discussion is not dumping a list of articles on another person. If you point out ones that specifically refute my points, I am happy to read them. I don't have time to read 20 articles now. I started with some but the quality of the linked articles was not all that great. "That post is quite accurate. While today some of those things have been corrected after the fact (Lise Meitner is now credited with a Nobel Peace Prize, but did not get awarded at the same time as others), those stories are true." I ask you to read the Wikipedia articles about all those women. It's not at all true that they were forgotten or cheated out of recognition for their work. Another one of them became the first female professor at Harvard, for example. "there are many studies to look at and several books published on the subject." Point me to a good one, then. The one that was linked here was merely a summary. I don't even know how many classrooms were scrutinized.

aestra 13y ago

>But when you find such a thing, like women asking for promotions less, why not learn from it and ask for a promotion? Women are socialized to not ask for what they want from a young age. Many do not realize they can even ask for the things they want. Society tends to view women and men differently when they ask. http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/jobs/06pre.html http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/jobs/06pre.html > The messages girls receive — from parents and teachers, from books they read, from movies and television shows they watch, and from behavior of the adults around them — can be so powerful that as women they may not even understand that their reluctance to ask for what they want is a learned behavior, and one that can be unlearned. >More recent research that I conducted with two colleagues, Hannah Bowles and Lei Lai, points to another reason that women don’t ask: They face a much chillier reaction — from men and from women — when they do negotiate for what they want. >Behavior that can lead a man to be seen as ambitious or a go-getter can brand a woman as too pushy and aggressive. She may be called rude names, receive negative evaluations based solely on her personal style instead of her work and find herself closed out of networks or opportunities from which she might benefit. My boss was pleased that I asked him for what I wanted. A lot of women aren’t so lucky. http://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2012/07/02/nice-girls-still-dont-ask-for-what-they-want-why-women-fall-short-at-the-negotiating-table/ http://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2012/07/02/nice-girl... http://www.ncrw.org/LiteratureReviews/Gender-Negotiation http://www.ncrw.org/LiteratureReviews/Gender-Negotiation http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ncmr.12022/abstract http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1111/ncmr.12022/abstra... >Can you point to the study that shows that? I have linked to many that you already refuse to read. Here's some: http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/2012/09/23/study-shows-gender-bias-in-science-is-real-heres-why-it-matters/ http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/201... http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/scmsAdmin/uploads/006/923/Adolph,%20K.,%20Mondschein,%20E.%20R.,%20Tamis-LeMonda,%20C.,%20Journ.%20of%20Experimental%20Child%20Psych.,%202000.pdf http://steinhardt.nyu.edu/scmsAdmin/uploads/006/923/Adolph,%... http://www.newsweek.com/why-parents-may-cause-gender-differences-kids-79501 http://www.newsweek.com/why-parents-may-cause-gender-differe... http://www.nature.com/scitable/content/chapter-9-workplace-bias-18255152 http://www.nature.com/scitable/content/chapter-9-workplace-b... http://naturalscience.com/ns/articles/01-08/ns_slee.html http://naturalscience.com/ns/articles/01-08/ns_slee.html >What if there are natural reasons? We can't know that because society treats baby girls different from baby boys at birth. Go take an anthropology class and learn about socialization. Nobody grew up in a bubble. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Socialization

facepalm 13y ago
I tried to read more of your links, but I didn't get all of them. "http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/jobs/06pre.html" http://www.nytimes.com/2008/04/06/jobs/06pre.html" This unfortunately doesn't give any details, it's basically just "my research has shown that xyz is true" - an appeal to authority. Maybe there is something to it. But the author has a girl as a kid. I'm a man. You may be surprised to hear that the same things she claims are socialization for girls have also been taught to me. Namely that I should be humble and recognition will come to me and all those things. Those are actually just basic "good behavior" for everyone. Therefore I am sorry, but I remain skeptic. "http://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2012/07/02/nice-girl..." http://www.forbes.com/sites/womensmedia/2012/07/02/nice-girl... This link is of horribly low quality. "Studies show that women are less likely to negotiate deals than men for 2 reasons: Women are socialized to place the needs of others first and their own second Women believe that they will be recognized and rewarded for their hard work and dedication " Uh yeah as I said - that is basically what everybody is being taught, not just women. Likewise the advice they give is good for everybody. There are scores of books full of career advice, for men and women. It's not as if men don't need it because they are naturals at it. "http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/201..." http://blogs.scientificamerican.com/unofficial-prognosis/201... I knew that one before and it is actually to date one of the few "feminist" papers that I accept as valid. However, I don't think the conclusion of sexism is necessarily correct. It seems clear from that research that men and women alike consider a female applicant less valuable. But what if the concern about the applicant dropping out to become a mother is a major factor of that. Would that really be sexism? To me it seems like a rational and valid reason. It is of course unfortunate for women, but what would be a good solution to counteract it? "We can't know that because society treats baby girls different from baby boys at birth." From that alone it doesn't follow that boys and girls could be raised with arbitrary socialization rules. Those rules probably evolved. Some differences in preferences, or in incentives, are obviously dictated by biology. You've probably heard it before: women need to invest 9 months and the risk of death into a pregnancy. Men just need to invest 10 seconds. I'll try to read more of the papers then I might write more - if HN lets me. Usually they kill my account around the 30 karma points region. So if I don't reply any further, it's because HN killed my account. In that case: it was nice talking to you!
13y ago

king_jester 13y ago

> What if there are natural reasons? Your assumption seems to be that women and men should act exactly equal, given "equality". What if that assumption is wrong? I already gave one example - women invest a lot of energy into child birth, so it seems natural that they have a higher preference, or rather privilege, to spend time with their children. We've seen biotruth-y arguments over and over again on this subject, you are going to have to provide something that offers at some least some evidence that such a thing could account for observed socialization patterns with regards to gender. > I can not read all of the studies you linked to. A lot of them are flawed anyway (I have read many of the like already). But in general I find it interesting. But when you find such a thing, like women asking for promotions less, why not learn from it and ask for a promotion? You out of hand have dismissed each article posted by the parent and have provided nothing of your own to talk about the flaw you perceive in those items. This isn't how research and argument work. > This one for example is ridiculous. Can you point to the study that shows that? I can think of many famous women. There is a plethora of evidence about this in a variety of contexts: media representation, women participation in the work force, rates of violent crime experienced by women, and so on. Simple Google searches will give you the most basic of starting points on all of these contexts. > There is this meme going around of the female scientists who are supposedly cheated out of their fame ( https://plus.google.com/115858612877723984178/posts/Hphw8ErS.. https://plus.google.com/115858612877723984178/posts/Hphw8ErS.... ). I looked them up on Wikipedia and the feminist story wasn't true at all. One of those women even had a chemical element named after herself (Lise Meitner). That post is quite accurate. While today some of those things have been corrected after the fact (Lise Meitner is now credited with a Nobel Peace Prize, but did not get awarded at the same time as others), those stories are true. > The article you link to about boys in the classroom seems to confirm what I guessed, that boys demand more attention. There is not enough information in that article to form a real conclusion, though. Classroom gender dynamics is well studied, there are many studies to look at and several books published on the subject. Like all research one article is not going to give you conclusive proof of how things are exactly.

facepalm 13y ago
Discussion is not dumping a list of articles on another person. If you point out ones that specifically refute my points, I am happy to read them. I don't have time to read 20 articles now. I started with some but the quality of the linked articles was not all that great. "That post is quite accurate. While today some of those things have been corrected after the fact (Lise Meitner is now credited with a Nobel Peace Prize, but did not get awarded at the same time as others), those stories are true." I ask you to read the Wikipedia articles about all those women. It's not at all true that they were forgotten or cheated out of recognition for their work. Another one of them became the first female professor at Harvard, for example. "there are many studies to look at and several books published on the subject." Point me to a good one, then. The one that was linked here was merely a summary. I don't even know how many classrooms were scrutinized.