4 ms·

I don’t think anyone was suggesting that. Many hackers I know do have other hobbies besides hacking and they devote lots of time to those hobbies. Beer brewing

by arrrg 13y ago

I don’t think anyone was suggesting that. Many hackers I know do have other hobbies besides hacking and they devote lots of time to those hobbies. Beer brewing, coffee making, writing poetry, music, languages, … What if one of those hobbies is dressing fashionably? Or makeup? Or whatever? Beyond a certain point activities are zero sum but do you seriously suggest that to be a proper hacker you have no time at all for anything beside that? I don’t think anyone should ever feel obligated to be into dressing fashionably or makeup or even just feel obligated to dress a certain way. That’s awful. (I especially hate gender policing.) But telling someone they can only be part of the group if they aren’t into makeup isn’t all that much better than telling someone they should wear makeup to represent women better. It’s a heuristic for identifying in-group people that makes no sense and to me seems highly destructive.

nitrogen 13y ago
It’s a heuristic for identifying in-group people that makes no sense and to me seems highly destructive. I suspect this heuristic started out as a way for the outcast, socially unwelcome hackers to finally find a group to which they could belong, an activity that didn't judge them for their intellect or their appearance. I further suspect that some of the pushback against lifting this heuristic comes from those same people, who feel that they will lose the only thing that gave them a reason to feel good about themselves in the face of total rejection by their peers. It would be just as tragic to force these people out of programming as it is tragic to prevent others from coming into programming.
- arrrg 13y ago
  Oh man, even more zero sum thinking. Outcasts making others outcasts, bullied becoming bullies. Nice. The general point is this: rejection because of the way you dress (no matter how) or look (no matter how) is not cool. The direction doesn’t really matter. But this groupthink is pretty disgustingly exclusionary.
  - nitrogen 13y ago
    From the article: Most of all, I'm disappointed. I had a haven, a place where no one cared what I looked like, what my body was like or about any ephemera—they cared about what I could do—and this culture shift has robbed me of my haven. At least I had that haven. The girls who follow me missed out on it. You know what's disgusting? People getting disgusted over issues that don't warrant disgust.
    - arrrg 13y ago
      I’m not sure how exclusionary rhetoric follows from that. It just doesn’t make any sense to me. Also, I think that statement is just outright wrong and misleading.
      - nitrogen 13y ago
        I wrote my first comment before reading the article, and later found that paragraph in which the article's author seemed to share my sentiments. In my first comment I may have been speculating on the motivations of others, but I did so by drawing in part on my own experiences. Programming, computers, BBSes/online services/Internet, etc. gave me something I could do as a grade school child that didn't depend on other people's approval of my social identity. My point was and is that it would be just as tragic to drive off the social misfits as it would be tragic to exclude the socially adept. Sadly, sometimes it seems the mainstream have seen how much money can be made by former and present misfits as hackers and want to take ownership of it for themselves. Edited to add: After rereading the thread, it seems you may have been commenting specifically on the sentence that I quoted. I don't intend to justify the heuristic that leads some to assume non-social-outcasts are non-hackers, only to explain it, and perhaps find a way of bridging the gap between those who use that heuristic, and those who are harmed by it.
  - GFK_of_xmaspast 13y ago
    I think a lot of programmers and such have bought into a dress code that involves ratty old tshirts and jeans and that kind of thing, c.f. scorn at people who show up to technical interviews in a suit
jiggy2011 13y ago
When you are younger the scarcity is money, not time. When I was younger I would have liked to dress fashionably or go out and do more sociable activities , but it was either that or buy computer parts and software etc. I couldn't have afforded both. By the time you get a job that lets you afford both you don't necessarily want to learn fashion from scratch.
- arrrg 13y ago
  That seems mostly like a class issue (which is also pretty awful, no doubt, though not something everyone faces). Also: As I said, I know hackers tend to have hobbies. And not cheap ones. Also, computers have dropped massively in price during the last twenty years. I don’t think becoming a hacker was ever super-expensive compared to many other activities, at least not during the last two decades, but now it’s quite affordable. Always depending on what you want to do, but – just as a point of comparison – I think being serious about PC gaming would likely be much more costly (well, I guess equally as costly if you are really into game development or something of that nature). Luckily computing has never been as affordable and accessible as today.
  - jiggy2011 13y ago
    When I was learning PC gaming and interest in programming tended to go hand in hand, people wanted to program because they wanted to build games or mod games. Though I guess now it might be social media, iphone apps or something. As a teenager I didn't exactly grow up poor but my income was restricted to what I could earn by working around my studies, so at most 12 hours a week at minimum wage which for a teenager was something like £3 an hour. At that sort of income doing things like renting servers , iphone SDKs, decent computers etc start to look more expensive.
  - picomancer 13y ago
    > I don’t think becoming a hacker was ever super-expensive compared to many other activities I disagree. In middle school I had a textbook on assembly language; the first chapters used DEBUG (a 16-bit debugger which came with DOS) but later chapters switched to programming in Microsoft MASM which was $180. I remember thinking, "There's no way my hacking budget can take that. It'll take me years to save up that kind of money, and when/if I do, I'm definitely gonna blow it on video games." I learned a lot by writing a QBASIC script which added label functionality to DEBUG to make it more usable assembling large programs. Also, the only C compiler I had was Turbo C++ Lite for DOS, which came with another textbook I picked up for cheap (I recall $20). It was crippled: You could only run programs from within the IDE. If you used the "compile to EXE" option, it would work but the resulting executable would do nothing, just spitting out an error message along the lines of "Only the full version of the compiler can produce working executables". But because different programs produced different-sized executables, I figured that meant the EXE file wasn't just a placeholder, it actually contained the compiled code but it was disabled somehow. I figured out through tracing and in-memory patching (with DEBUG of course!) that there was a conditional branch within the first couple hundred instructions. Replacing it fixed the problem! Kids these days have it so easy. All of the tools you need have excellent FOSS versions you can instantly download. Online resources are more comprehensive and up-to-date than any textbook. Modern languages have garbage collection and array bounds checking, eliminating entire classes of bugs.

by arrrg 13y ago

nitrogen 13y ago

It’s a heuristic for identifying in-group people that makes no sense and to me seems highly destructive. I suspect this heuristic started out as a way for the outcast, socially unwelcome hackers to finally find a group to which they could belong, an activity that didn't judge them for their intellect or their appearance. I further suspect that some of the pushback against lifting this heuristic comes from those same people, who feel that they will lose the only thing that gave them a reason to feel good about themselves in the face of total rejection by their peers. It would be just as tragic to force these people out of programming as it is tragic to prevent others from coming into programming.

arrrg 13y ago
Oh man, even more zero sum thinking. Outcasts making others outcasts, bullied becoming bullies. Nice. The general point is this: rejection because of the way you dress (no matter how) or look (no matter how) is not cool. The direction doesn’t really matter. But this groupthink is pretty disgustingly exclusionary.
- nitrogen 13y ago
  From the article: Most of all, I'm disappointed. I had a haven, a place where no one cared what I looked like, what my body was like or about any ephemera—they cared about what I could do—and this culture shift has robbed me of my haven. At least I had that haven. The girls who follow me missed out on it. You know what's disgusting? People getting disgusted over issues that don't warrant disgust.
  - arrrg 13y ago
    I’m not sure how exclusionary rhetoric follows from that. It just doesn’t make any sense to me. Also, I think that statement is just outright wrong and misleading.
    - nitrogen 13y ago
      I wrote my first comment before reading the article, and later found that paragraph in which the article's author seemed to share my sentiments. In my first comment I may have been speculating on the motivations of others, but I did so by drawing in part on my own experiences. Programming, computers, BBSes/online services/Internet, etc. gave me something I could do as a grade school child that didn't depend on other people's approval of my social identity. My point was and is that it would be just as tragic to drive off the social misfits as it would be tragic to exclude the socially adept. Sadly, sometimes it seems the mainstream have seen how much money can be made by former and present misfits as hackers and want to take ownership of it for themselves. Edited to add: After rereading the thread, it seems you may have been commenting specifically on the sentence that I quoted. I don't intend to justify the heuristic that leads some to assume non-social-outcasts are non-hackers, only to explain it, and perhaps find a way of bridging the gap between those who use that heuristic, and those who are harmed by it.
- GFK_of_xmaspast 13y ago
  I think a lot of programmers and such have bought into a dress code that involves ratty old tshirts and jeans and that kind of thing, c.f. scorn at people who show up to technical interviews in a suit

jiggy2011 13y ago

When you are younger the scarcity is money, not time. When I was younger I would have liked to dress fashionably or go out and do more sociable activities , but it was either that or buy computer parts and software etc. I couldn't have afforded both. By the time you get a job that lets you afford both you don't necessarily want to learn fashion from scratch.

arrrg 13y ago
That seems mostly like a class issue (which is also pretty awful, no doubt, though not something everyone faces). Also: As I said, I know hackers tend to have hobbies. And not cheap ones. Also, computers have dropped massively in price during the last twenty years. I don’t think becoming a hacker was ever super-expensive compared to many other activities, at least not during the last two decades, but now it’s quite affordable. Always depending on what you want to do, but – just as a point of comparison – I think being serious about PC gaming would likely be much more costly (well, I guess equally as costly if you are really into game development or something of that nature). Luckily computing has never been as affordable and accessible as today.
- jiggy2011 13y ago
  When I was learning PC gaming and interest in programming tended to go hand in hand, people wanted to program because they wanted to build games or mod games. Though I guess now it might be social media, iphone apps or something. As a teenager I didn't exactly grow up poor but my income was restricted to what I could earn by working around my studies, so at most 12 hours a week at minimum wage which for a teenager was something like £3 an hour. At that sort of income doing things like renting servers , iphone SDKs, decent computers etc start to look more expensive.
- picomancer 13y ago
  > I don’t think becoming a hacker was ever super-expensive compared to many other activities I disagree. In middle school I had a textbook on assembly language; the first chapters used DEBUG (a 16-bit debugger which came with DOS) but later chapters switched to programming in Microsoft MASM which was $180. I remember thinking, "There's no way my hacking budget can take that. It'll take me years to save up that kind of money, and when/if I do, I'm definitely gonna blow it on video games." I learned a lot by writing a QBASIC script which added label functionality to DEBUG to make it more usable assembling large programs. Also, the only C compiler I had was Turbo C++ Lite for DOS, which came with another textbook I picked up for cheap (I recall $20). It was crippled: You could only run programs from within the IDE. If you used the "compile to EXE" option, it would work but the resulting executable would do nothing, just spitting out an error message along the lines of "Only the full version of the compiler can produce working executables". But because different programs produced different-sized executables, I figured that meant the EXE file wasn't just a placeholder, it actually contained the compiled code but it was disabled somehow. I figured out through tracing and in-memory patching (with DEBUG of course!) that there was a conditional branch within the first couple hundred instructions. Replacing it fixed the problem! Kids these days have it so easy. All of the tools you need have excellent FOSS versions you can instantly download. Online resources are more comprehensive and up-to-date than any textbook. Modern languages have garbage collection and array bounds checking, eliminating entire classes of bugs.